HD1 vs. HD1a vs. ??? at DVinfo.net

Justin Liu · August 24th, 2006, 07:03 AM

My HD1 has died a "black screen" death, and I am wondering what I should do. I think I have 4 options:

1) Send the HD1 back to Sanyo for repair. This lets me keep the OLED screen, but I'm concerned that people have continued to have problems after repair.

2) Return the HD1 and buy a replacement HD1. Has anyone with a newer HD1 experienced any problems like the black screen?

3) Return/exchange the HD1 for the imminent HD1a. None of the changes reported for the HD1a really makes a difference to me, but if build quality is improved, that would be significant.

4) Return the HD1 and get one of the (more expensive) HD camcorders from Sanyo's competitors. Does anyone have any good links to information (e.g., release dates, specs, prices, etc.)? I want very small form factor, flash (SD) based media, and hi-def. I don't want to spend a lot more money, but I am willing to spend a little more if it means I can get better optics, better manual controls, better low light performance, and/or better encoding/bitrate.

Any suggestions?

Chris Wells · August 24th, 2006, 08:10 AM

I think it all boils down to what you want out of your HD1. If you want ultra portability without spending more cash, look to the HD1 or 1a. There are no other ultra-portables that compete at this time... even if the HD1 is prone to failures.

If you'll sacrifice the reduced size for increased reliability, there are more durable options on the market. You'll lose resolution, but you'll lose the jaggies as well. If you ponder why you have an HD1, what you want it for, and how long you're willing to wait for something better, you'll know what to do.

Justin Liu · August 25th, 2006, 07:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Wells

I think it all boils down to what you want out of your HD1. If you want ultra portability without spending more cash, look to the HD1 or 1a. There are no other ultra-portables that compete at this time... even if the HD1 is prone to failures.

If you'll sacrifice the reduced size for increased reliability, there are more durable options on the market. You'll lose resolution, but you'll lose the jaggies as well. If you ponder why you have an HD1, what you want it for, and how long you're willing to wait for something better, you'll know what to do.

I do like the portability, but in this day and age, I think it is reasonable to expect that if you pay $600+ for a camcorder, at a minimum it will not suddenly stop working if treated without abuse. I can live with the other limitations (low light performance, jaggies, compression, zoom noise, etc.) but I at least expect it to produce some kind of picture. Maybe I'm just asking too much.

I should also clarify that I am willing to wait a bit (say, up to 6 months), and I am willing to pay bit more (say, up to $1200). Does that get me something that will have roughly the same size as the HD1 with some improvements? I'm still not sure I know what to do. :)

Chris Wells · August 25th, 2006, 08:26 AM

6 months is a long time in technology. It's been that long since I bought my HD1 and look how things have changed. If you are honestly happy waiting, return your HD1.

As an early adopter, I can say I love the advantages of the HD1. Still, the unit has too many issues to be ready for mainstream adoption. The 1a comes out next month; only time will tell what issues are resolved by that revision, but it seems worth watching... in conjunction with the units from other manuafacturers, especially Panasonic.

Panasonic's had the SDR-S100 out for a year now, the SDR-S200 overseas, and is just releasing the SDR-S150 to North America. From what I've read, these too have their issues, but reliability is improved.

Wayne Morellini · August 28th, 2006, 12:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Justin Liu

My HD1 has died a "black screen" death, and I am wondering what I should do. I think I have 4 options:
..
4) Return the HD1 and get one of the (more expensive) HD camcorders from Sanyo's competitors. Does anyone have any good links to information (e.g., release dates, specs, prices, etc.)? I want very small form factor, flash (SD) based media, and hi-def. I don't want to spend a lot more money, but I am willing to spend a little more if it means I can get better optics, better manual controls, better low light performance, and/or better encoding/bitrate.

Any suggestions?

Samsung are to release a 15-18mb/s+ 720/60p pocket camera in August. Well there seems to be more Samsung releases coming up in camcorderinfo.com lately, and other manufacturers are releasing next month, so hopefully it will be soon (like next month). Or you can try the other AVCHD h264 cameras, or the new Canon HV10 1080p HDV. But, as with a lot of things, delays might mean you won't see it until sometime in the future. What the specs are now is another thing.

http://www.letsgodigital.org/en/news...tory_5906.html

Look up the threads on it in the news forum, I had some better links with better data rate information.

HV10
http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/forumdisplay.php?f=139

Victor Ngai · August 28th, 2006, 11:17 AM

The first HD1A video sample from sanyo!

http://www.sanyo-dsc.com/products/li...ple/index.html

What do you think?

Felipe Del Villar · August 28th, 2006, 11:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Victor Ngai

The first HD1A video sample from sanyo!

http://www.sanyo-dsc.com/products/li...ple/index.html

What do you think?

Seems like the jaggies are still there......thanks for posting this.

Wayne Morellini · August 29th, 2006, 05:56 AM

(About the bug still being there, not allowed to use this sort of language around here) (or here) (or here).. ;)

I had a look at that sample up close, and it looks strange. Is it my imagination, or is this worse than the previous?

It looks like the shadows and dark cloths goes too black fast. There seems way too much saturation. The camera needed to be rendered more towards the color of the photo mode instead.

Is the rendered resolution lower? I see ringing, or is that some form of edge enhancement. In the opening scene on the palm to the left, it is a halo on one side, and reddish on the other. I compared too frames from the rain drops on glass footage linked to from another thread here for color and resolution. I am not going to go much further in analysis, but the blocking also looks worse. It doesn't appear better then the HD1. We were glad that the HD1 could get better performance with coaching, but it was not so good that it didn't need to be better. I also wonder why the new remote is like it is.

I am curious if they are using some sort of filter that is distorting the image producing most of these problems.

The diagonal bug is there, and it even looks a bit different, but I am not certain.

So what does everybody think?

--------------------

I imagine a lot of people will be impressed with this camera until they by a big true HD TV, and compare to Blueray or a better HD camera. Compared to HDTV, the previous model seemed to have it. I feel more features and better performance would have more warranted a new model. A great consumer camera, a camera man might carry around and recommend to every consumer they know, that is what Sanyo has the chance of doing.

I likely could do a much better job programming this camera, if the processing power is open to different processing/codec algorithms. A high quality bayer codec most likely would fit in less than 25mb/s, even at 9mb/s it might do much better than MP4, or h264, at a fraction of the power. Over in the Elphel thread we are investigating a lossless Bayer codec. But with the way storage is going, anything below 50mb/s is alright. Well, until the HD2, I wonder if that is coming this year.

They have a TV link with samples:
http://www.Sanyo-dsc.com/community/tv/index.html

http://www.sanyo-dsc.com/products/li...ion/index.html

Thanks

Wayne.

Lynne Whelden · August 29th, 2006, 06:38 AM

I sure hope the upcoming HDX15 HD pocketcam is better than the identical SD model SC X105 Samsung currently offers. They look the same externally. The picture quality on the 105 was pretty pathetic. Used MPEG4 compression but it looked worse than VHS.
They've got 3 more days to make our dreams come true!

Wayne Morellini · August 29th, 2006, 01:31 PM

Yeah, I'm worried about that too.

Lynne Whelden · August 29th, 2006, 06:11 PM

BTW, I called Samsung today (800-SAMSUNG) to inquire about the upcoming X15. He didn't know any more about it than we do. He did suggest that it probably won't be meeting any August deadline, since their standard protocol is to alert the customer service dept. several months in advance of the release of a new product. Bummer. But I suppose we can keep checking in....

Chris Taylor · August 30th, 2006, 08:34 PM

Several problems. its higher bitrate (bad) 2.5 times the cost Uses internal memory which means no matter what your SOL till you reach a computer

it would have been nicer to include DUAL CF slots and a 4gb CF card.

And how can they proclaim 1st Flash based HD when there's does not exist yet while I hold my Flash Based HD Camcorder in my hands ?

Chris Taylor
http://www.nerys.com/

Wayne Morellini · August 31st, 2006, 09:28 AM

Probably the bit rate is the maximum. But the pricing of flash and the pricing of HDD, are going such that this is becoming more affordable.

Max theoretical HDD density has just had another big boost, and the IBM millipede technology may well change the market (if it comes). We are moving to a time where even uncompressed can become affordable.

Chris Taylor · August 31st, 2006, 05:18 PM

Not really maybe uncompressed for recording but THEN what do you do with it ?? in fact this is the CRUX of my current major headache What the hell do I do with all this crap. I shot stills and video for Naram. my Pictures take just a hair over 4gig (fits on a DVD) my VIDEO takes over 30GIG !!!

where the heck do I safetly store 30gig ? I don't trust DVD's for long term storage. I think I will eventually have to set up a hard drive storage rig. Copy the stuff to a HD till its full unplug it and store it in a nice airtight sealed padded case and pray.

This is going to get expensive though. it means I will have to buy a roughly $100 hard drive every 4-6 months and the materials to properly STORE them.

Its becoming a rather annoying problem :-) that is why I am very satisfied with the HD1 - I would be very unsatisfied with anything less than an hour on a 4gb card. May times already I have to dumb down to VGA just so I can record a 2.5 hours even etc.. without having to carry 12gb of SD cards and remember to rapidly swap them without losing any of the event.

I really hope 8gb cards work in the HD1 I REALLY need them to work. being able to record 2 hours of HD on a single card would really solve a lot of my problems and I could just goto dual layer discs to still fit them on ONE dvd for playback.

Chris Taylor
http://www.nerys.com/

Wayne Morellini · September 3rd, 2006, 10:34 AM

It depends on what you want to do, and how much you want to spend. I can get a 80GB drive for around $40, 1000 GB drives are nearly here, and 300GB are cheap. The 100GB SD card, millipede, I think, has the potential to be produced cheaper then all these.

Yes, I would use hard drives to store. BD and much better tech is also coming (cheaper eventually).

For some people, for some jobs, that is what they want to do.

Compressed rates for lossless 720p bayer, may run into 32mb/s territory one day, certainly visually lossless can do that today through cineform Bayer compression. I am looking at one technique that could drive that down to 9mb/s in a non bayer format. At the moment I am interested in image restoration and noise removal to boost lossless compression.

But I fully appreciate what you are saying, Holiday snaps, and quick and cheap jobs don't really need more than 9mb/s (though I prefer 18mb/s+) or extra cost. As I said, it would be fun to do a film on the HD1a, just to show it can be done, and would people really notice it too much on a HDTV broadcast.

August 24th, 2006, 07:03 AM	#1
Justin Liu New Boot Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: San Jose, CA Posts: 13	HD1 vs. HD1a vs. ??? My HD1 has died a "black screen" death, and I am wondering what I should do. I think I have 4 options: 1) Send the HD1 back to Sanyo for repair. This lets me keep the OLED screen, but I'm concerned that people have continued to have problems after repair. 2) Return the HD1 and buy a replacement HD1. Has anyone with a newer HD1 experienced any problems like the black screen? 3) Return/exchange the HD1 for the imminent HD1a. None of the changes reported for the HD1a really makes a difference to me, but if build quality is improved, that would be significant. 4) Return the HD1 and get one of the (more expensive) HD camcorders from Sanyo's competitors. Does anyone have any good links to information (e.g., release dates, specs, prices, etc.)? I want very small form factor, flash (SD) based media, and hi-def. I don't want to spend a lot more money, but I am willing to spend a little more if it means I can get better optics, better manual controls, better low light performance, and/or better encoding/bitrate. Any suggestions?

August 29th, 2006, 06:38 AM	#9
Lynne Whelden Major Player Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: williamsport, pa Posts: 604	Hoping for Samsung to come thru I sure hope the upcoming HDX15 HD pocketcam is better than the identical SD model SC X105 Samsung currently offers. They look the same externally. The picture quality on the 105 was pretty pathetic. Used MPEG4 compression but it looked worse than VHS. They've got 3 more days to make our dreams come true!

August 24th, 2006, 08:10 AM	#2
Chris Wells Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Kelowna, Canada Posts: 148	I think it all boils down to what you want out of your HD1. If you want ultra portability without spending more cash, look to the HD1 or 1a. There are no other ultra-portables that compete at this time... even if the HD1 is prone to failures. If you'll sacrifice the reduced size for increased reliability, there are more durable options on the market. You'll lose resolution, but you'll lose the jaggies as well. If you ponder why you have an HD1, what you want it for, and how long you're willing to wait for something better, you'll know what to do.

August 25th, 2006, 08:26 AM	#4
Chris Wells Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Kelowna, Canada Posts: 148	6 months is a long time in technology. It's been that long since I bought my HD1 and look how things have changed. If you are honestly happy waiting, return your HD1. As an early adopter, I can say I love the advantages of the HD1. Still, the unit has too many issues to be ready for mainstream adoption. The 1a comes out next month; only time will tell what issues are resolved by that revision, but it seems worth watching... in conjunction with the units from other manuafacturers, especially Panasonic. Panasonic's had the SDR-S100 out for a year now, the SDR-S200 overseas, and is just releasing the SDR-S150 to North America. From what I've read, these too have their issues, but reliability is improved.

August 28th, 2006, 11:17 AM	#6
Victor Ngai New Boot Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Hong Kong Posts: 7	The first HD1A video sample from sanyo! http://www.sanyo-dsc.com/products/li...ple/index.html What do you think?

August 29th, 2006, 05:56 AM	#8
Wayne Morellini Inner Circle Join Date: May 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 2,762	(About the bug still being there, not allowed to use this sort of language around here) (or here) (or here).. ;) I had a look at that sample up close, and it looks strange. Is it my imagination, or is this worse than the previous? It looks like the shadows and dark cloths goes too black fast. There seems way too much saturation. The camera needed to be rendered more towards the color of the photo mode instead. Is the rendered resolution lower? I see ringing, or is that some form of edge enhancement. In the opening scene on the palm to the left, it is a halo on one side, and reddish on the other. I compared too frames from the rain drops on glass footage linked to from another thread here for color and resolution. I am not going to go much further in analysis, but the blocking also looks worse. It doesn't appear better then the HD1. We were glad that the HD1 could get better performance with coaching, but it was not so good that it didn't need to be better. I also wonder why the new remote is like it is. I am curious if they are using some sort of filter that is distorting the image producing most of these problems. The diagonal bug is there, and it even looks a bit different, but I am not certain. So what does everybody think? -------------------- I imagine a lot of people will be impressed with this camera until they by a big true HD TV, and compare to Blueray or a better HD camera. Compared to HDTV, the previous model seemed to have it. I feel more features and better performance would have more warranted a new model. A great consumer camera, a camera man might carry around and recommend to every consumer they know, that is what Sanyo has the chance of doing. I likely could do a much better job programming this camera, if the processing power is open to different processing/codec algorithms. A high quality bayer codec most likely would fit in less than 25mb/s, even at 9mb/s it might do much better than MP4, or h264, at a fraction of the power. Over in the Elphel thread we are investigating a lossless Bayer codec. But with the way storage is going, anything below 50mb/s is alright. Well, until the HD2, I wonder if that is coming this year. They have a TV link with samples: http://www.Sanyo-dsc.com/community/tv/index.html http://www.sanyo-dsc.com/products/li...ion/index.html Thanks Wayne.

August 29th, 2006, 01:31 PM	#10
Wayne Morellini Inner Circle Join Date: May 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 2,762	Yeah, I'm worried about that too.

August 29th, 2006, 06:11 PM	#11
Lynne Whelden Major Player Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: williamsport, pa Posts: 604	BTW, I called Samsung today (800-SAMSUNG) to inquire about the upcoming X15. He didn't know any more about it than we do. He did suggest that it probably won't be meeting any August deadline, since their standard protocol is to alert the customer service dept. several months in advance of the release of a new product. Bummer. But I suppose we can keep checking in....

August 30th, 2006, 08:34 PM	#12
Chris Taylor Regular Crew Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Levittown PA Posts: 132	Several problems. its higher bitrate (bad) 2.5 times the cost Uses internal memory which means no matter what your SOL till you reach a computer it would have been nicer to include DUAL CF slots and a 4gb CF card. And how can they proclaim 1st Flash based HD when there's does not exist yet while I hold my Flash Based HD Camcorder in my hands ? Chris Taylor http://www.nerys.com/

August 31st, 2006, 09:28 AM	#13
Wayne Morellini Inner Circle Join Date: May 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 2,762	Probably the bit rate is the maximum. But the pricing of flash and the pricing of HDD, are going such that this is becoming more affordable. Max theoretical HDD density has just had another big boost, and the IBM millipede technology may well change the market (if it comes). We are moving to a time where even uncompressed can become affordable.

August 31st, 2006, 05:18 PM	#14
Chris Taylor Regular Crew Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Levittown PA Posts: 132	Not really maybe uncompressed for recording but THEN what do you do with it ?? in fact this is the CRUX of my current major headache What the hell do I do with all this crap. I shot stills and video for Naram. my Pictures take just a hair over 4gig (fits on a DVD) my VIDEO takes over 30GIG !!! where the heck do I safetly store 30gig ? I don't trust DVD's for long term storage. I think I will eventually have to set up a hard drive storage rig. Copy the stuff to a HD till its full unplug it and store it in a nice airtight sealed padded case and pray. This is going to get expensive though. it means I will have to buy a roughly $100 hard drive every 4-6 months and the materials to properly STORE them. Its becoming a rather annoying problem :-) that is why I am very satisfied with the HD1 - I would be very unsatisfied with anything less than an hour on a 4gb card. May times already I have to dumb down to VGA just so I can record a 2.5 hours even etc.. without having to carry 12gb of SD cards and remember to rapidly swap them without losing any of the event. I really hope 8gb cards work in the HD1 I REALLY need them to work. being able to record 2 hours of HD on a single card would really solve a lot of my problems and I could just goto dual layer discs to still fit them on ONE dvd for playback. Chris Taylor http://www.nerys.com/

September 3rd, 2006, 10:34 AM	#15
Wayne Morellini Inner Circle Join Date: May 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 2,762	It depends on what you want to do, and how much you want to spend. I can get a 80GB drive for around $40, 1000 GB drives are nearly here, and 300GB are cheap. The 100GB SD card, millipede, I think, has the potential to be produced cheaper then all these. Yes, I would use hard drives to store. BD and much better tech is also coming (cheaper eventually). For some people, for some jobs, that is what they want to do. Compressed rates for lossless 720p bayer, may run into 32mb/s territory one day, certainly visually lossless can do that today through cineform Bayer compression. I am looking at one technique that could drive that down to 9mb/s in a non bayer format. At the moment I am interested in image restoration and noise removal to boost lossless compression. But I fully appreciate what you are saying, Holiday snaps, and quick and cheap jobs don't really need more than 9mb/s (though I prefer 18mb/s+) or extra cost. As I said, it would be fun to do a film on the HD1a, just to show it can be done, and would people really notice it too much on a HDTV broadcast.