the defective jaggies MP4 Encoder, I can´t stand it... at DVinfo.net

Stefan Hartmann · October 14th, 2006, 05:07 PM

Hi All,
is there any fix coming for the big jaggies problem ?
When will Sanyo finally fix it ?

I would really love to buy this camera, but I can NOT stand
the left diagonal jaggies problem !

Hmm, the other HD cam I would buy is the Canon HV-10
but it is more expensive and has only Interlace output,
but its picture quality is very good !

Les Dit · October 16th, 2006, 12:10 AM

First: The jaggies are not a bug, as many people claim. They are a design deficiency. It's not like they " forgot to see the problem ".

I have found that using the TIsophote filter within a avisynth script takes out most of the jaggies. This fix is for users comfortable with scripting and are familiar with image processing terminology.

In all, I'm pretty happy with the little HD1. Much better video than from other pocket point and shoot cameras as of Oct 2006.
-L

Wayne Morellini · October 16th, 2006, 06:26 AM

Les, are you talking about the malformed macro blocks that seem messed up and rotated along strong diagonal edges in one direction, or the minor jaggies of aliasing that you get with poorer cameras? The former is something that is just alien to the image, the latter is more of a deficiency as you describe (even the way they bin the sensor to the lower resolutions).

I wonder when we will hear about the next model, from my discussion (other thread) with a Sanyo rep, he seemed to expect something in 4 months or so. I think that this is really a camera for the consumer that doesn't mind it's faults. It should have had 1.4 or faster aperture (low light) 18mb/s mode for dual layer DVD and HD disk formats and better binning.

As it is, to compete with upcoming 24mb/s AVCHD cameras, you would need something like the equivalent of 35mb/s Mpeg4 churned to a internal hard disk (which we are unlikely to get). But, as it is, in future they probably should aim for the maximum that next gen HD disks can do (we can't ask for more) and HDMI 1.3 live output for computer capture. Extended latitude (multislope) and lower noise, are two of the biggies for great pictures out of mega pixel cameras. there are a handful of cmos sensor manufacturers currently offering this, I hope they can go for that and restore their standing.

As it is, if they can do a firmware fix up for that diagonal macro bug, do better noise/debayering/binning/aliasing, and give us as high data rate as possible, I could recommend the camera as a better camera.

Felipe Del Villar · October 17th, 2006, 10:49 PM

I don't think the jaggies are a big problem:

The "jaggies" are very evident when you watch the video in your computer and you freeze the frame. But that's not how I watch home-videos, I use a Network Media Player to stream the video into my HDTV, and under this condition the jaggies disappear.

The size is THE relevant factor with this camera, I know I have shot more video with this camera in the first 3 month than I ever shot with all my previous video cameras in all my lifetime. The reason is the size of the camera and on top of that the quality is far better than DV.

I guess the main factor for your decision is what are you going to do with your camera. If you want to use it in a business environment and you are just looking for inexpensive HD...look somewhere else. If you want to capture your family and your kids growing to watch them later in your life with reasonable image quality .... then what are you waiting?

Wayne Morellini · October 20th, 2006, 06:59 AM

The normal jaggies are bad taste, but this macro thing sticks out much more easily (but only in some shoots, with the right hard diagonal edges).

Stefan Hartmann · November 13th, 2006, 02:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Les Dit

First: The jaggies are not a bug, as many people claim. They are a design deficiency. It's not like they " forgot to see the problem ".

I have found that using the TIsophote filter within a avisynth script takes out most of the jaggies. This fix is for users comfortable with scripting and are familiar with image processing terminology.

In all, I'm pretty happy with the little HD1. Much better video than from other pocket point and shoot cameras as of Oct 2006.
-L

Hi Les,
do you mean this ?

http://www.missouri.edu/~kes25c/

and this :
http://neuron2.net/library/LSImageReconstruction.pdf

Do you know, if such a filter also exists directly for Virtualdub ?

I have found out via a newer ATI graphics card driver,
that if I scale the 1280x720 screen size to my
1400x1050 display Fullscreen size, the jaggies are a bit
filtered out, so they are a bit less visible, but I still see them
of course... You automatically look for them in each scene,
so it would be much better, if Sanyo will soon
provide a firmware update.
This is still pretty visible and covers fine details into this
"jaggies noise" so the fine details will be lost... too bad...

Also the conversion process with the above filter takes probably
pretty long to compute, if you want filter one hour of footage
from each shooting...

Maybe you can post an example of some footage,
"before and after" and upload it to www.rapidshare.de
or simular storage spaces, so we can have a look at
this filter output and compare it ?
Many thanks.

Regards, Stefan.

Pietro Mauri · November 22nd, 2006, 03:16 AM

Hi Les,
could you please tell me any info on parameters you are using with the TIsophote filter??
Thank you

October 14th, 2006, 05:07 PM	#1
Stefan Hartmann Regular Crew Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Berlin, Germany Posts: 46	the defective jaggies MP4 Encoder, I can´t stand it... Hi All, is there any fix coming for the big jaggies problem ? When will Sanyo finally fix it ? I would really love to buy this camera, but I can NOT stand the left diagonal jaggies problem ! Hmm, the other HD cam I would buy is the Canon HV-10 but it is more expensive and has only Interlace output, but its picture quality is very good !

October 16th, 2006, 12:10 AM	#2
Les Dit Major Player Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Southern Cal-ee-for-Ni-ya Posts: 608	Jaggies can be reduced First: The jaggies are not a bug, as many people claim. They are a design deficiency. It's not like they " forgot to see the problem ". I have found that using the TIsophote filter within a avisynth script takes out most of the jaggies. This fix is for users comfortable with scripting and are familiar with image processing terminology. In all, I'm pretty happy with the little HD1. Much better video than from other pocket point and shoot cameras as of Oct 2006. -L

October 16th, 2006, 06:26 AM	#3
Wayne Morellini Inner Circle Join Date: May 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 2,762	Les, are you talking about the malformed macro blocks that seem messed up and rotated along strong diagonal edges in one direction, or the minor jaggies of aliasing that you get with poorer cameras? The former is something that is just alien to the image, the latter is more of a deficiency as you describe (even the way they bin the sensor to the lower resolutions). I wonder when we will hear about the next model, from my discussion (other thread) with a Sanyo rep, he seemed to expect something in 4 months or so. I think that this is really a camera for the consumer that doesn't mind it's faults. It should have had 1.4 or faster aperture (low light) 18mb/s mode for dual layer DVD and HD disk formats and better binning. As it is, to compete with upcoming 24mb/s AVCHD cameras, you would need something like the equivalent of 35mb/s Mpeg4 churned to a internal hard disk (which we are unlikely to get). But, as it is, in future they probably should aim for the maximum that next gen HD disks can do (we can't ask for more) and HDMI 1.3 live output for computer capture. Extended latitude (multislope) and lower noise, are two of the biggies for great pictures out of mega pixel cameras. there are a handful of cmos sensor manufacturers currently offering this, I hope they can go for that and restore their standing. As it is, if they can do a firmware fix up for that diagonal macro bug, do better noise/debayering/binning/aliasing, and give us as high data rate as possible, I could recommend the camera as a better camera.

October 17th, 2006, 10:49 PM	#4
Felipe Del Villar Regular Crew Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Costa Mesa, CA Posts: 28	I don't think the jaggies are a big problem: The "jaggies" are very evident when you watch the video in your computer and you freeze the frame. But that's not how I watch home-videos, I use a Network Media Player to stream the video into my HDTV, and under this condition the jaggies disappear. The size is THE relevant factor with this camera, I know I have shot more video with this camera in the first 3 month than I ever shot with all my previous video cameras in all my lifetime. The reason is the size of the camera and on top of that the quality is far better than DV. I guess the main factor for your decision is what are you going to do with your camera. If you want to use it in a business environment and you are just looking for inexpensive HD...look somewhere else. If you want to capture your family and your kids growing to watch them later in your life with reasonable image quality .... then what are you waiting?

October 20th, 2006, 06:59 AM	#5
Wayne Morellini Inner Circle Join Date: May 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 2,762	The normal jaggies are bad taste, but this macro thing sticks out much more easily (but only in some shoots, with the right hard diagonal edges).

November 22nd, 2006, 03:16 AM	#7
Pietro Mauri Tourist Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Como, Italy Posts: 3	Hi Les, could you please tell me any info on parameters you are using with the TIsophote filter?? Thank you