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Old September 2nd, 2008, 01:08 PM   #121
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ali Husain View Post
Not sure if this was already addressed in this thread: the sensor is very likely running in a sub-sampled mode and not a binned-mode (the former reduces off-sensor bandwidth requirement, power, and heat), so you'll end up with aliasing artifacts. my guess is the video won't be very useable for high-quality situations because of that. :(
Sounds about right, I am seeing various aliasing issues in all the clips:

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Originally Posted by Kholi View Post
Someone said: The PQ (picture quality) doesn't come close to the current crop of HDV/HD Cameras.
That was probably me - and I stand by that comment. From what I can tell so far from the footage we have seen - the PQ is certainly below that of, for instance, a FX1 or HV30 with a lens adaptor (I agree with your point that it is only really relevant to compare 'apples to apples') - But as far as I can see we still have not had sufficient footage, shot by someone who knows the camera well and in ideal circumstances.

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Originally Posted by Kholi View Post
I can't see anywhere, even in the "bad" clips, that the image quality from the current crop of cameras exceeds the D90's image.
I am genuinely perplexed that people here cannot see the shimmering poor aliasing on the head of the penguin (I think it is a baby penguin) on the original camera file over on dpreview - or the poor aliasing on the pebbles in the upper right hand side of the duck shot - or they cannot see the poor detail/facet/median type look to the clips ?

Perhaps there are in camera settings yet to be gone through, but so far as I can see the quality is without a doubt lesser than any of the recent HDV offerings from Canon or Sony (taking your lens adaptor proviso into account).

I haven't got any good footage on hand to make a decent comparison, but here I am trying to show the 'median filter' effect I can see in the footage, I realise it would be a lot better to find similar footage.

Three images, all 1:1 pixel size from RAW (ungraded) files - saved as maximum quality JPEG files (although ultimately lossy - the high JPEG setting is pretty much identical to the original source files and any degradation from the original is equally applicable to both cameras).

Left: what I had to do to the HV30 original to get it to match the D90 - Centre: original 1:1 pixel D90 crop - Right: original HV30 1:1 pixel crop
(I might have pushed the 'look' a little too far, but I hope you get the idea).



Same deal - with another HV30 source:



And again, but blow up 200% (nearest neighbor/no interpolation/2x2 pixel matrix)



SOURCE FILES:





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Originally Posted by Kholi View Post
I'll reserve FINAL judgement for this Sunday.
Me too ! And I am hoping once on of you guys has picked up one of these you can show us some better footage.
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Old September 2nd, 2008, 04:35 PM   #122
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These clips will playback flawlessly on the PS3 and if any of you donít have one, itís best to find someone that does to see if youíll find the same artifacts.
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Old September 2nd, 2008, 05:20 PM   #123
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Hi

This is my first post on DVinfo, though I've been a very long time addict/lurker. This topic has encouraged me to add a comment.

I shoot both stills and video in the great outdoors, like I'm sure many other potential users of this camera do. The D90 could answer a lot of prayers for people in this category, niche as it might be. There have been many times when, to save on weight in my backpack ( and also killing my knees ), I've made a conscious choice to only shoot stills on a given day. While this a great way to focus on the one discipline there have been some of these days where I just wished I'd carried enough kit to film a few shots and have a little creative control. With this in mind, i'm really looking forward to see how this idea develops.

I also noticed the exposure flicker in some of the online footage, something I have seen in some time lapse footage. Now I'm not a Nikon DSLR user ( I use Olympus E-Series ) so please go easy on me on this, but I have seen this article on flicker in the Nikon D200 when shooting time lapse.
A and N Photography: Eliminating flicker from time lapse intervalometer shooting

Is it possible that something similar is happening in these clips? I'm not sure how the exposure is controlled separately from the lens to camera body, i'm not a Nikon shooter, ( but soon might be ) so I'm just curious.

Adrian
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Old September 2nd, 2008, 06:59 PM   #124
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Wilson View Post
I am genuinely perplexed that people here cannot see the shimmering poor aliasing on the head of the penguin (I think it is a baby penguin) on the original camera file over on dpreview - or the poor aliasing on the pebbles in the upper right hand side of the duck shot - or they cannot see the poor detail/facet/median type look to the clips ?
We can see the shimmering. Is this much worse than what is seen in HDV? We'll have to examine the settings. I bet this will look better when the default sharpening is reduced. Though, your point about the lack of filtering on downsampling is important. Perhaps future Nikon's will do this.

I'm dreaming for a D3 "Movie Mode" firmware upgrade, but I just know Nikon will offer this in the D3X/D300s/D700s whatever.
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Old September 2nd, 2008, 07:41 PM   #125
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Originally Posted by Gints Klimanis View Post
We can see the shimmering. Is this much worse than what is seen in HDV?
Yes, without a doubt, the clips (and they are numerous now) directly from the D90 suffer from either aliasing problems ('shimmering') or a lack of detail/clarity (very much like an image run through Photoshop's median or 'dust and scratches filter').

I agree with you that the in camera settings may need to be checked, but considering Nikon's own ad for the D90 (shot on a D90) suffers from the same issues my hope is waning somewhat.

Large file / slow server - but original MJPEG straight from the camera:

http://photo-cafe.jp/scoop/archives/...d90_movie.html
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Old September 2nd, 2008, 07:48 PM   #126
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Originally Posted by Gints Klimanis View Post
I'm dreaming for a D3 "Movie Mode" firmware upgrade, but I just know Nikon will offer this in the D3X/D300s/D700s whatever.
Speaking of firmware upgrades, what's Nikon's history here? From what I've seen, exposures haven't been consistent on the D90 videos. That's probably not a sensor issue. But if it can be fixed in firmware, what is the likelihood that Nikon will actually fix it?
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Old September 2nd, 2008, 08:00 PM   #127
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Originally Posted by Jon Fairhurst View Post
Speaking of firmware upgrades, what's Nikon's history here? From what I've seen, exposures haven't been consistent on the D90 videos. That's probably not a sensor issue. But if it can be fixed in firmware, what is the likelihood that Nikon will actually fix it?
Nikon has been ok with firmware upgrades by offering them a few months after a product has launched. We're not sure of the causes of the D90 "auto-iris" exposure, but we may just be seeing auto-ISO or the Aperture or Shutter Speed priority modes. Nikon should definitely fix the software to allow us a full manual mode, better yet, exposure compensation based on the f-stop. Camcorders have yet to offer the latter.

Nikon has offered very few feature upgrades in Firmware releases, although the D2H was upgraded with the improved focus algorithms offered in the D2Hs. I doubt Nikon will offer movies in existing D3/D300/D700 cameras unless such would help sell more VR lenses. I'd really like to have my D3 be a 35mm video camera.
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Old September 2nd, 2008, 08:06 PM   #128
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What about Manual mode?

If Nikon's Movie mode allows it, wouldn't shooting in full Manual avoid such exposure variations?
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Old September 2nd, 2008, 08:09 PM   #129
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Originally Posted by Gints Klimanis View Post
Nikon has been ok with firmware upgrades by offering them a few months after a product has launched. We're not sure of the causes of the D90 "auto-iris" exposure, but we may just be seeing auto-ISO or the Aperture or Shutter Speed priority modes. Nikon should definitely fix the software to allow us a full manual mode...
That's good to hear. The exposure hunting seems to be a flaw, rather than something in search of a new feature.
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Old September 2nd, 2008, 08:24 PM   #130
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Originally Posted by Jon Fairhurst View Post
That's good to hear. The exposure hunting seems to be a flaw, rather than something in search of a new feature.
I don't think it was intended to be a flaw but rather a mimic of the auto-IRIS automatic exposure feature common in camcorders.
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Old September 2nd, 2008, 08:41 PM   #131
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Originally Posted by Gints Klimanis View Post
I don't think it was intended to be a flaw but rather a mimic of the auto-IRIS automatic exposure feature common in camcorders.

Is so, this is an awful implementation !
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Old September 2nd, 2008, 11:32 PM   #132
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Looking at the dpreview's clips all I can say is without exposure lock or manual exposure control, the camera's video would be useless for any serious applications. Besides, the clips also showed aliasing and something I would call "jumping framing" effect in the penguine clips which I suspect was caused by the lens' vibration reduction system trying to compensate for the movement or framing of the shot.

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Old September 3rd, 2008, 04:35 AM   #133
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Theres seems to be a few still unanswer questions on this camera. Namely:

1) IS there indeed a 5 min max time? If so, why?
2) does the camera allow full manual control when shooting video?
3) Can the live view be captured oner HDMI without overlay?

Can someone please please explain why Nikon doesnt have a representative posting on this (and all other ) forums??

If it was my company, and I was promoting a product as exciting as this, I would want not only to hear the points raised here, but also be able to respond and correct missinfomation.

These questions could be answered with one post from a nikon tech, and my guess is would mean a boost in sales.

So why hasnt this happened??
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Old September 3rd, 2008, 07:03 AM   #134
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Originally Posted by James Millward View Post
1) IS there indeed a 5 min max time? If so, why?
Yes, there is a 5 min limit, we don't know why for certain, either chip heating issues or tax reasons (the theory goes like this: over 5 min = video camera / under 5 mins = stills camera - video pays more tax)
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Old September 3rd, 2008, 11:59 AM   #135
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Originally Posted by James Millward View Post
If it was my company, and I was promoting a product as exciting as this, I would want not only to hear the points raised here, but also be able to respond and correct missinfomation.

These questions could be answered with one post from a nikon tech...
I wish Nikon was more willing to talk about the features as well but a lot of other companies including Canon, Sony and Panasonic do the same thing sometimes so it’s very common.
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