Raided Hard drives, bad or good? at DVinfo.net

Go Back   DV Info Net > Windows / PC Post Production Solutions > Non-Linear Editing on the PC

Non-Linear Editing on the PC
Discussing the editing of all formats with Matrox, Pinnacle and more.


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old August 24th, 2004, 01:24 PM   #1
Regular Crew
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: West Palm Beach
Posts: 75
Raided Hard drives, bad or good?

Is it bad to be working off a raided hard drive system, I've got 2 140 GB's running off a duel xeon processor set up, and 4 gigs of ram... the machine flys, but I've been reading about how I should store audio and video on separate drive as well as preview files..
Pat Engh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 24th, 2004, 06:00 PM   #2
Major Player
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Miami, FL
Posts: 574
S++t Happens!

We are running 12 - 146gig hardrives or 1.75 Terabytes in a Raid configuration (basically 2 drives) with no problems. Dual 3 gig processors and 3 gigs of RAM. Does that mean that we are safe forever?

Absolutley not!

Regardless of how you run, computers are computers are computers...end of story.

Take a look at our system at http://www.rbravo.com/vsu_equipment.htm

Just scroll down to the EDITING portion of the page.

Go for it and enjoy.

RB
__________________
"The future ain't what it used to be." Yogi Berra.
www.rbravo.com
Rick Bravo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 25th, 2004, 03:24 AM   #3
RED Code Chef
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Holland
Posts: 12,514
Pat: define "bad" please.
__________________

Rob Lohman, visuar@iname.com
DV Info Wrangler & RED Code Chef

Join the DV Challenge | Lady X

Search DVinfo.net for quick answers | Buy from the best: DVinfo.net sponsors
Rob Lohman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 25th, 2004, 11:22 AM   #4
Inner Circle
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: switzerland
Posts: 2,131
first you have to define wich RAID you use.
the only raid that is safe is the MIRRORING of data from one disk to another. This gives no real performance improvement but if a drive fails, you can continue to work.
RAID configuration that simply merge several disk to give a bigger one offers no security at all. even worse if one disk fail, the good one becomes unusable.
If you need BOTH security and performance and have a lot of money you can look at raid 10 or 50.
RAID 50 is very safe because you can have several disk failing at the same time and still can work. The cost is heavy because you have the cost of raid5 (one disk lost on a set of disk) plus the cost of the raid 0 (all disks in the raid mirrored.).
Do not become paranoid about RAID. A simple mirror is already a huge improvement and if you got a third one to backup essential files against mistake (not failures) you already got a perfect system.
Giroud Francois is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 25th, 2004, 09:31 PM   #5
Inner Circle
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Toronto, Canada
Posts: 4,750
Depending on your NLE, you can restore your project by batch capturing off the source tapes. For this you need to backup your project files and/or EDLs.

Quote:
I've been reading about how I should store audio and video on separate drive as well as preview files..
I haven't heard of that offering useful performance gains if you're working with DV footage. I am assuming you are talking about a setup like:
OS on one hard drive
swap on another
program files on another
video/audio on big drives
Glenn Chan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 29th, 2004, 06:50 AM   #6
Sponsor: Electronic Mailbox
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Glen Cove, NY
Posts: 751
Here is what we say on our recommended systems page:

Video Storage recommendations
With todays powerful processors, lightening fast memory, super 3D graphics cards and huge ATA hard drives you can capture, edit & playback single stream DV video with your system drive. That said, we still urge you to get a dedicated hard drive (7200 RPM or faster) for all your video clips. This will produce the best results - especially for video projects over 1 hour in length. If you are going to be using one of our Real-Time NLE solutions then we still recommend a VideoRAID, EIDE Raid or SCSI for best results.

We recommend Serial ATA (SATA) drives for NLE. While these drives do have a cost premium, the improved sustained data throughput is worth it. We also like the new cables which allow for better air flow inside your computer case. We have not yet had the chance to test any SATA Raid controllers, but we're confident that they will work great with our software based NLE solutions. RAIDs are great! For the best results set up a dedicated RAID 0 stripe for your video & media files. This will give you a huge capacity with the fastest possible sustained throughput for your editing.

RAID Warning! We do NOT recommend setting up your computer with a single RAID 0 array as your boot drive and video storage. This may actually give you poor performance for video editing. The constant reading and writing of small bits of data to the boot drive works against the need to read & write large continuous video files. Add in the overhead of the RAID controller and you get potential bottlenecks. For video editing you always want to have a dedicated drive or RAID array for your video files.

http://www.videoguys.com/system.htm

Gary
__________________
Check out http://www.videoguys.com 800 323-2325 We are the video editing and live video production experts! DV InfoNet members save 5%! Use Coupon Code DVINFO5OFF
Gary Bettan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 29th, 2004, 11:17 PM   #7
Inner Circle
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Toronto, Canada
Posts: 4,750
I have to say that I have not seen any hard evidence that makes an argument for RAID. Many people say that theoretically RAID is better, but theoretical things don't always translate to real world performance (and the theory may be wrong).

I did some testing on the difference hard drive speed makes. You can find my results + testing methodology over at
http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthrea...threadid=18784

I tested the effect of hard drive speed on rendering speed.

The bottom line from that particular test is that RAID is not worth the effort.

Things to watch out for are:
A- Testing methodology. I did not have an actual RAID to play with, but used a RAM disk instead (theoretically many times superior).
B- Whether the results apply to you. There are a few tasks where your renders are close to file copies, in which case RAID would make a difference. But in those cases, it's faster to have just a bunch of disks (render from one to the other).
Glenn Chan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 30th, 2004, 06:22 AM   #8
Regular Crew
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Houston, TX (Clear Lake area)
Posts: 42
Glen,

Quote:
I have to say that I have not seen any hard evidence that makes an argument for RAID. Many people say that theoretically RAID is better, but theoretical things don't always translate to real world performance (and the theory may be wrong).
There are two good reasons to use RAID:
1. Protection against hard drive failure
2. Performance

It depends on the RAID level you use. I would think protecting against hard drive failure is always a benefit.

Quote:
I did some testing .... I did not have an actual RAID to play with, but used a RAM disk instead...
Well Glen, your results may be interesting, but have nothing to do with RAID if you did NOT use RAID in your test setup. :-)

FYI, even if you use a RAM disk, it doesn't mean that the data is always in memory. Don't know what your OS is, but Windows always uses virtual memory, which means what you think is in memory may be swapped out to disk.

A good RAID for performance and protection is RAID Level 3. For more info see
http://www.pcguide.com/ref/hdd/perf/...eLevel3-c.html
http://www.acnc.com/04_01_03.html

HTH.
JM Underwood is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 30th, 2004, 11:10 PM   #9
Inner Circle
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Toronto, Canada
Posts: 4,750
JM, do you have a RAID3 set to play with?
Have you tried rendering to the drive? It might turn out to be slower since RAID3 has slow writes.
Glenn Chan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 30th, 2004, 11:48 PM   #10
Regular Crew
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Houston, TX (Clear Lake area)
Posts: 42
Glenn,

No, I don't have a RAID 3. But according to a number of sources, it is well suited to video editing. It is slower in small, random writes, but faster in large writes. See the second ref in my previous post.

RAID 0 should yield the best performance, but does not offer any protection against a HDD failure. Some RAID controllers are highly optimized for RAID 0 providing substantial improvements in performance.

Performance is becoming less and less of an issue with the very fast HDDs we have today like the Ultra133 and the SATA drives. Of course SCSI is even faster. I have not done any testing but I have seen several posts that NLE is constrained more by CPU and RAM than by today's HDDs.

Back to Pat's original question. Given that he has duel xeons and 4GB RAM, I wouldn't even worry about RAID from a performance perspective. But yes, I would put the OS and the video data on separate drives. If I did any RAID, it would be to put the OS on RAID 1 for protection.
JM Underwood is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 31st, 2004, 11:11 AM   #11
Regular Crew
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Posts: 90
Better to leave the OS non-raid imho. WD Raptor makes a great C drive.
Raid the capture/working drives. For mission critical- backup important files to another non raided drive or to dvd for small files.

Remember to do a backup of your C drive regardless...(I say to my lazy self also)
Richard Maloney is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 1st, 2004, 03:33 AM   #12
Major Player
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Sweden, Stockholm
Posts: 469
Hi,

Raid tests and reviews:

http://www.storagereview.com/articles/200406/20040625TCQ_1.html

http://www.anandtech.com/storage/showdoc.aspx?i=2101

Personally I have decided for a hardware raid 5 setup. Using the "Promise FastTrak S150SX4 4-port SATA RAID5" with 256mb onboard memory. The array will be in my server machine(serving my 2 client computers ). I'll have 4x250gb HDD which will give me 750gb raided storage ( 250gb is parity bits for safety ).

I'll connect the machines by Gigabit ethernet.

// Lazze \\
Lars Siden is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 1st, 2004, 04:20 PM   #13
Inner Circle
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Toronto, Canada
Posts: 4,750
Those two links don't have benchmarks/tests really relevant to video editing. Except for anandtech, which tested game loading times (which is important when you're not editing video :D).

Things that do matter for video would be:
# of real-time streams. RAID does help here if you want lots of RT streams. For what you do you may never be bottlenecked by your hard drive.
Rendering times. The benefits from RAID is very questionable.
Exports. (Having seperate drives is faster however)
Other things you can think of that slow you down. i.e. stitching for Vegas network rendering- this may really benefit from RAID 0.
Glenn Chan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 2nd, 2004, 02:57 PM   #14
Major Player
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Sweden, Stockholm
Posts: 469
Hi,

Maybe they didn't measure NLE performance using stripe... but I seriously don't think that any NLE will render ( even using Netrender modules ) faster than 30mb/sec - and that will a standard new model HDD handle just fine.

RT streams - sure if you have several uncompressed streams you can gain from striping. In this scenario I'd go for a gigabit hooked up server for feeding the viewer-client - since network traffic using good NICS uses less CPU than reading from HDD

My option going for Raid 5 isn't all about speed - it's about Security AND speed. Using the promise controller with onboard parity bit CPU and 256mb cache-memory is IMHO the "most secured bang for the buck". You could do a nice Raid 5 array with 200gb disks which are really cheap here in sweden - You get a 8mb cache 200gb disk for about 130 USD.

Will be back later when I have some real bench values to display ( new server will arrive within 2 weeks )

Best regards,

Lazze

ps. U R right, gaming can be important...Doom III here I come! ds.
Lars Siden is offline   Reply
Reply

DV Info Net refers all where-to-buy and where-to-rent questions exclusively to these trusted full line dealers and rental houses...

Professional Video
(800) 833-4801
Portland, OR

B&H Photo Video
(866) 521-7381
New York, NY

Z.G.C.
(973) 335-4460
Mountain Lakes, NJ

Abel Cine Tech
(888) 700-4416
N.Y. NY & L.A. CA

Precision Camera
(800) 677-1023
Austin, TX

DV Info Net also encourages you to support local businesses and buy from an authorized dealer in your neighborhood.
  You are here: DV Info Net > Windows / PC Post Production Solutions > Non-Linear Editing on the PC

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

 



Google
 

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 05:11 AM.


DV Info Net -- Real Names, Real People, Real Info!
1998-2017 The Digital Video Information Network