pinnacle...premiere? at DVinfo.net

Jared Thomas · October 6th, 2004, 10:32 PM

alright.....i just got a xl1s and ive been messing around with adobe premier and ive been reading some of the 'how to' stuff but im not catching on like i had hoped....so do yall think i should use something like pinnacle or what... ive never used it before but i heard it was easy....i dont know what to do...im new which means im ignorant....so any advice would be good advice. thanks

Rob Lohman · October 7th, 2004, 03:18 AM

It is always a good idea to try different (editing) programs before
settling on one. However if you are going to do this, make sure
you do some actual editting work in them. That's the best way
to learn a package. Also keep in mind that you will need to invest
some time to know how each package works.

Most people (on the PC platform) here seem to be using:

Adobe Premiere (Pro)
Sony Vegas

I would recommend the latter. To get you started on the latter:

- drop some footage on your timeline
- you can slide footage over one another to cross fade
- use the 'S' key on your keyboard to split a file on the timeline

You can download demo's to both programs.

George Ellis · October 7th, 2004, 04:02 AM

I recommend Liquid Edition myself. ;) I currently use it and the next version is due ship at the end of the month (maybe.) There used to be a trial available on CD from Pinnacle, but need to run out the door, so cannot look it up.

Ed Smith · October 7th, 2004, 09:29 AM

I recommend Premiere... However the choice is yours! Get a demo with everyone!

Cliff Hepburn · October 7th, 2004, 10:03 AM

It's tough to find someone that can give you an unbiased opinion.
There's the Vegas users that sit down for an hour on a Adobe editor and are quick to judge that it's more difficult to use because they've been using Vegas for 3 yrs and "that's how it should work" and vice versa.
I'm a Premiere user and have been happy with all the versions from 6 on up, but that's what I was weened on.
Ideally it would be nice to get the experts on each piece of software and have the experts go through the process of how things are done.
For example, a simple crossfade in Premiere is cntl D, I guess to do this in Vegas is simply overlay the two clips and so forth onto more complex processes.
Random thoughts.
.02
-Cjh

Rob Lohman · October 7th, 2004, 10:19 AM

That is why you should try out demos and look for yourself.
Nobody can really tell you "what to use". They can basically say
why they are using a product and why they think it is good.

George Ellis · October 7th, 2004, 05:17 PM

This is the upgrade site, but they have a video/flash and some links for the new Liquid version.

http://www.pinnaclesys.com/NewsLette...ding/index.htm

Kevin Shaw · October 7th, 2004, 06:42 PM

One good thing about Adobe Premiere is that it's a widely used and supported program with plenty of training options. Pinnacle Liquid Edition has possibly the worst online help files of any computer program I've ever used, which makes it hard to figure out how to do things you can't figure out on your own. If you're finding Premiere too difficult to learn you might try one of the more consumer-oriented editing applications to see if that meets your needs. In any case, download all the demos you can get your hands on and see what program makes the most sense to you.

George Ellis · October 7th, 2004, 08:52 PM

Pinnacle does have a large library of tutorials here:

http://www.pinnaclesys.com/PBN/defau...p?product=1474

Jared Thomas · October 7th, 2004, 11:11 PM

wow...thanks guys for all the replys...im sure ill figure somthing out that i like....btw, ive got my first wedding gig this saturday......wish me luck!!....

Peter Jefferson · October 8th, 2004, 06:24 AM

many options.. :)

Prem Pro, very standardised with many other producers, helps u work with multiple channels (business channels that is)
Very Powerful with a matrox RTX100.. without it, its ok, but for the price, invest in an RTX to go with it.
Compatibility and HW issues can be a problem if not configured corectly, also bare in mind that premieres workflow has been streamlines immensley.
Great system, has its moments of dummy spits, and sometimes still requires you to render complex transitions/filters/overlays
Hae had many people with failed projects doe to mismanagement of media drives and system configs. Be aware that sometimes when prem dies, it dies hard and fast.
bit of a resource hog, so be aware that u sometimes cannot run other applications when its running with an RT.
with an RT you have "realtime" output.. when ts happy, there are no issues complex issues then your alwayr re-rendering those complex clips to make it output in realtime. THis is tedious for me, and wastes time as its not fast, even on a P4 3.6HT with 2gb DDR
Great integration with other Adobe apps.

Liquid.
Pretty solid system. I dont like the layout personally simply because i hate icons and i dont see the relevance of having a window with your source video. I dont like its databasing system of media. ie it works similarly to Avid, wherby your captured media is assigned a database number, this fil eis accessable but there is no actual filename, so management wihtin another applicaitonfinal effects can be a nightmare especially when working with a capture that had scene detection turned on.
great dynamic timewarp (slow mo)
It also like to overtake your file associatin within ur system and pretend to be an actual OS, which is one thing i despise of SW. as there is no choice to turn this off.
basically all ur audio, video, still images will be associated with liquid..
the good thing about this database system is the background rendering, its efficient, and works a treat.
Transitions are very basic and nothing about the flow of work is as smooth or fluid as V5 or PremPro.
Hollywood effects is a nice touch with openGL assisted 3d gfx used within your transitions.
Timeline DVD Authoring allows for integration, and pinnacle always have lil gadgets to go with their edit.
Another thing i fail to take hold of with Pinnacle is the stupid number of useless menus to get a task done.
even with background rendering, you stiull have to render out which is not realtime.
background rendering from what i have seen is only for preview.
Keyframing can be a nightmare
L6 will have HD support, but still no actual HD delivery as wella s multicam, plus integration with WaveLab which is steinbergs answer to Sound Forge

V5,
easy to use. no hard thinking involved. Like prem, can be used as A/B editing, or singular timeline with unlimited tracks.
Needs a juicy system to get the most out of it.
great filters.. think of it as after effects with a bolted on editor. Incredible audio automation for filters, effect, eq's compression etc
Rock solid, with scripting you can automate many tasks.
integration with other Sony apps like aoundforge and acid.
Native ac3 output with no plugin management required, external device control as well as midi timecode.
everything ( and i mean EVERYTHING) is keyframeable with multiple rubber bands on any elelment within your project.
Dynamic ram preview must be done manually, but its really no hassle as u hardly need to use this.
Filter effect chaining is similar to Prem and extremely easy to create your own filter packages. or sets. V6 we should see an inbuilt multicam based on timecodes on your tape (hopefully)
thers alot there.. and i can keep writing but my hands are tired.. LOL

I havent mentioned edius coz in all honesty it has nothign to interest me that these other aps can already do with alot more efficiency (even with a storm2 card)
I also havent mentioend any DVD authoring tools.

Dan Euritt · October 8th, 2004, 01:32 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by Jared Thomas : alright.....i just got a xl1s and ive been messing around with adobe premier and ive been reading some of the 'how to' stuff but im not catching on like i had hoped.-->>>

if you have a licensed copy of premiere, not just the demo version, you are already well equipped to edit wedding videos and create mpeg2 files for dvd use.

until you get comfortable with the general basics of editing software, it might be difficult to make an informed decision that you'll be happy with later down the line... so keep on messing around with premiere, and check out the forum at adobe.com.

i would definitely not invest in a hardware card at this point if i were you... just use the firewire port on your pc... this doesn't sound like a productivity issue, it's more of a learning curve issue.

Kevin Shaw · October 10th, 2004, 11:52 AM

"I havent mentioned edius coz in all honesty it has nothign to interest me that these other aps can already do with alot more efficiency (even with a storm2 card)"

The best thing about Edius is that it beats everyone else in terms of real-time capabilities, at least up to the limit of the features it supports. Even on my laptop I can do most tasks for a 2-3 layer editing project in real time, including to the DV output. And then when I'm ready to make a DVD I can go to my DVStorm system and generate a decent MPEG2 file in real time for projects up to about 1 hour 45 minutes in length. (Beyond that two pass encoding is preferable.) I haven't seen any other software with this kind of real-time performance and hardware/software flexibility, although Adobe Premiere may come close. Vegas and Liquid Edition have clever approaches to making up for their lack of true real-time capabilities, but I haven't heard anyone bragging about their MPEG2 encoding times with these programs. I wouldn't recommend Edius for everyone, but it's a good choice if you like real-time editing and don't need the most advanced features of more mature programs.

October 6th, 2004, 10:32 PM	#1
Jared Thomas Regular Crew Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: texas Posts: 60	pinnacle...premier? alright.....i just got a xl1s and ive been messing around with adobe premier and ive been reading some of the 'how to' stuff but im not catching on like i had hoped....so do yall think i should use something like pinnacle or what... ive never used it before but i heard it was easy....i dont know what to do...im new which means im ignorant....so any advice would be good advice. thanks __________________ get me another job.

October 7th, 2004, 03:18 AM	#2
Rob Lohman RED Code Chef Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Holland Posts: 12,514	It is always a good idea to try different (editing) programs before settling on one. However if you are going to do this, make sure you do some actual editting work in them. That's the best way to learn a package. Also keep in mind that you will need to invest some time to know how each package works. Most people (on the PC platform) here seem to be using: Adobe Premiere (Pro) Sony Vegas I would recommend the latter. To get you started on the latter: - drop some footage on your timeline - you can slide footage over one another to cross fade - use the 'S' key on your keyboard to split a file on the timeline You can download demo's to both programs. __________________ Rob Lohman, visuar@iname.com DV Info Wrangler & RED Code Chef Join the DV Challenge \| Lady X Search DVinfo.net for quick answers \| Buy from the best: DVinfo.net sponsors

October 7th, 2004, 09:29 AM	#4
Ed Smith Wrangler Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Hampshire, England Posts: 1,545	I recommend Premiere... However the choice is yours! Get a demo with everyone! __________________ Ed Smith Hampshire, UK Good things come to those who wait My Skiing web www.Frostytour.co.uk For quick answers Search dvinfo.net \| The best in the business: dvinfo.net Sponsors

October 7th, 2004, 10:19 AM	#6
Rob Lohman RED Code Chef Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Holland Posts: 12,514	That is why you should try out demos and look for yourself. Nobody can really tell you "what to use". They can basically say why they are using a product and why they think it is good. __________________ Rob Lohman, visuar@iname.com DV Info Wrangler & RED Code Chef Join the DV Challenge \| Lady X Search DVinfo.net for quick answers \| Buy from the best: DVinfo.net sponsors

October 7th, 2004, 11:11 PM	#10
Jared Thomas Regular Crew Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: texas Posts: 60	wow...thanks guys for all the replys...im sure ill figure somthing out that i like....btw, ive got my first wedding gig this saturday......wish me luck!!.... __________________ get me another job.

October 7th, 2004, 04:02 AM	#3
George Ellis Trustee Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Suwanee, GA Posts: 1,241	I recommend Liquid Edition myself. ;) I currently use it and the next version is due ship at the end of the month (maybe.) There used to be a trial available on CD from Pinnacle, but need to run out the door, so cannot look it up.

October 7th, 2004, 10:03 AM	#5
Cliff Hepburn Regular Crew Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Boston Posts: 75	It's tough to find someone that can give you an unbiased opinion. There's the Vegas users that sit down for an hour on a Adobe editor and are quick to judge that it's more difficult to use because they've been using Vegas for 3 yrs and "that's how it should work" and vice versa. I'm a Premiere user and have been happy with all the versions from 6 on up, but that's what I was weened on. Ideally it would be nice to get the experts on each piece of software and have the experts go through the process of how things are done. For example, a simple crossfade in Premiere is cntl D, I guess to do this in Vegas is simply overlay the two clips and so forth onto more complex processes. Random thoughts. .02 -Cjh

October 7th, 2004, 05:17 PM	#7
George Ellis Trustee Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Suwanee, GA Posts: 1,241	This is the upgrade site, but they have a video/flash and some links for the new Liquid version. http://www.pinnaclesys.com/NewsLette...ding/index.htm

October 7th, 2004, 06:42 PM	#8
Kevin Shaw Inner Circle Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Sacramento, CA Posts: 2,488	One good thing about Adobe Premiere is that it's a widely used and supported program with plenty of training options. Pinnacle Liquid Edition has possibly the worst online help files of any computer program I've ever used, which makes it hard to figure out how to do things you can't figure out on your own. If you're finding Premiere too difficult to learn you might try one of the more consumer-oriented editing applications to see if that meets your needs. In any case, download all the demos you can get your hands on and see what program makes the most sense to you.

October 7th, 2004, 08:52 PM	#9
George Ellis Trustee Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Suwanee, GA Posts: 1,241	Pinnacle does have a large library of tutorials here: http://www.pinnaclesys.com/PBN/defau...p?product=1474

October 8th, 2004, 06:24 AM	#11
Peter Jefferson Inner Circle Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Aus Posts: 3,884	many options.. :) Prem Pro, very standardised with many other producers, helps u work with multiple channels (business channels that is) Very Powerful with a matrox RTX100.. without it, its ok, but for the price, invest in an RTX to go with it. Compatibility and HW issues can be a problem if not configured corectly, also bare in mind that premieres workflow has been streamlines immensley. Great system, has its moments of dummy spits, and sometimes still requires you to render complex transitions/filters/overlays Hae had many people with failed projects doe to mismanagement of media drives and system configs. Be aware that sometimes when prem dies, it dies hard and fast. bit of a resource hog, so be aware that u sometimes cannot run other applications when its running with an RT. with an RT you have "realtime" output.. when ts happy, there are no issues complex issues then your alwayr re-rendering those complex clips to make it output in realtime. THis is tedious for me, and wastes time as its not fast, even on a P4 3.6HT with 2gb DDR Great integration with other Adobe apps. Liquid. Pretty solid system. I dont like the layout personally simply because i hate icons and i dont see the relevance of having a window with your source video. I dont like its databasing system of media. ie it works similarly to Avid, wherby your captured media is assigned a database number, this fil eis accessable but there is no actual filename, so management wihtin another applicaitonfinal effects can be a nightmare especially when working with a capture that had scene detection turned on. great dynamic timewarp (slow mo) It also like to overtake your file associatin within ur system and pretend to be an actual OS, which is one thing i despise of SW. as there is no choice to turn this off. basically all ur audio, video, still images will be associated with liquid.. the good thing about this database system is the background rendering, its efficient, and works a treat. Transitions are very basic and nothing about the flow of work is as smooth or fluid as V5 or PremPro. Hollywood effects is a nice touch with openGL assisted 3d gfx used within your transitions. Timeline DVD Authoring allows for integration, and pinnacle always have lil gadgets to go with their edit. Another thing i fail to take hold of with Pinnacle is the stupid number of useless menus to get a task done. even with background rendering, you stiull have to render out which is not realtime. background rendering from what i have seen is only for preview. Keyframing can be a nightmare L6 will have HD support, but still no actual HD delivery as wella s multicam, plus integration with WaveLab which is steinbergs answer to Sound Forge V5, easy to use. no hard thinking involved. Like prem, can be used as A/B editing, or singular timeline with unlimited tracks. Needs a juicy system to get the most out of it. great filters.. think of it as after effects with a bolted on editor. Incredible audio automation for filters, effect, eq's compression etc Rock solid, with scripting you can automate many tasks. integration with other Sony apps like aoundforge and acid. Native ac3 output with no plugin management required, external device control as well as midi timecode. everything ( and i mean EVERYTHING) is keyframeable with multiple rubber bands on any elelment within your project. Dynamic ram preview must be done manually, but its really no hassle as u hardly need to use this. Filter effect chaining is similar to Prem and extremely easy to create your own filter packages. or sets. V6 we should see an inbuilt multicam based on timecodes on your tape (hopefully) thers alot there.. and i can keep writing but my hands are tired.. LOL I havent mentioned edius coz in all honesty it has nothign to interest me that these other aps can already do with alot more efficiency (even with a storm2 card) I also havent mentioend any DVD authoring tools.

October 8th, 2004, 01:32 PM	#12
Dan Euritt Trustee Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Carlsbad CA Posts: 1,132	Re: pinnacle...premier? <<<-- Originally posted by Jared Thomas : alright.....i just got a xl1s and ive been messing around with adobe premier and ive been reading some of the 'how to' stuff but im not catching on like i had hoped.-->>> if you have a licensed copy of premiere, not just the demo version, you are already well equipped to edit wedding videos and create mpeg2 files for dvd use. until you get comfortable with the general basics of editing software, it might be difficult to make an informed decision that you'll be happy with later down the line... so keep on messing around with premiere, and check out the forum at adobe.com. i would definitely not invest in a hardware card at this point if i were you... just use the firewire port on your pc... this doesn't sound like a productivity issue, it's more of a learning curve issue.

October 10th, 2004, 11:52 AM	#13
Kevin Shaw Inner Circle Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Sacramento, CA Posts: 2,488	"I havent mentioned edius coz in all honesty it has nothign to interest me that these other aps can already do with alot more efficiency (even with a storm2 card)" The best thing about Edius is that it beats everyone else in terms of real-time capabilities, at least up to the limit of the features it supports. Even on my laptop I can do most tasks for a 2-3 layer editing project in real time, including to the DV output. And then when I'm ready to make a DVD I can go to my DVStorm system and generate a decent MPEG2 file in real time for projects up to about 1 hour 45 minutes in length. (Beyond that two pass encoding is preferable.) I haven't seen any other software with this kind of real-time performance and hardware/software flexibility, although Adobe Premiere may come close. Vegas and Liquid Edition have clever approaches to making up for their lack of true real-time capabilities, but I haven't heard anyone bragging about their MPEG2 encoding times with these programs. I wouldn't recommend Edius for everyone, but it's a good choice if you like real-time editing and don't need the most advanced features of more mature programs.