CRT monitor for color correction

[Josh Bass]

Ah, but that's what your scopes are for.

[Marty Welk]

Sort of what i am saying, is the Color bars are not USED as much for one of the major purposes they once had with analog signals.
and they also dont reflect the changes made in the digital arena to be totally effective.
They used to Display every Problem, issue, and incorrectness of an analog signal.
But
Digital doesnt have the Same problems analog has, it has a whole new array of issues and problems :-) called compression , bit processing, data fudging, cheap digital tricks. The old analog color bars dont do anything to show those problems. They wont very well show codec problems, artifacts, blocking, fringing, banding, noise, and all the new digital disasters that can occur. They wont show ALL the issues and problems with digital display devices either.

[Marty Welk]

Originally Posted by Josh Bass

Ah, but that's what your scopes are for.

Yes and i Luv those digital scopes in the software , but really if your signal generated non-moving color bars , sent digitally through a wire, and put into a computer dont already Match , and look really pretty on a scope display, then something must really be messed up :-)

[Perrone Ford]

Originally Posted by Marty Welk

But Digital doesnt have the Same problems analog has, it has a whole new array of issues and problems :-) called compression , bit processing, data fudging, cheap digital tricks. The old analog color bars dont do anything to show those problems. They wont very well show codec problems, artifacts, blocking, fringing, banding, noise, and all the new digital disasters that can occur. They wont show ALL the issues and problems with digital display devices either.

I'm sorry, this is just wrong. You have all the same problems as before, they just manifest themselves differently. And if you think color bars don't have a place, then do the following:

1. Lay a set of bars onto a recording at the camera and record 1 minute of video with it.
2. Drop that on the timeline and convert to an editing format like ProRes, or DnxHD, or whatever.
3. Edit the piece
4. Convert that to a broadcast format
5. Match the broadcast format final to the original signal and see what's happened to those bars.

They still have a place, and they can still tell you what's happening to your signal along the chain of processing.

[Marty Welk]

It is a concept that is yet to be understood.
i did not say they had No value, never said that.
i said they need to reflect the changes that digital has thrown at us, even if the original still exists.
full uncompressed analog signals didnt fall apart when you have massive pixel/color changes all over the screen, even if they fell apart all the rest of the time. :-)

if i want to see what is happening thanks to De-compressing some 20-1 compression scheme into some OTHER compression scheme, then de-compressing and re-compressing it back again into one more lossy high compression scheme, If i am going to see what is happening when my colors are tossed out left and right, when there is much movement on the screen, then i am going to need more than Blocks (ha ha blocks that is how it is compressed) of solid colors and a minor grey scale.

i am not trying to take away anybodys color bars, the color bars like you say can still show changes, changes that really shouldnt even be occuring with proper digital :-) unless for some reason your processing the color bars themselves.
but they barely touch what is really happening to the signal during the processing.
giving cruddy digital compressions and displays a free ride.

[Perrone Ford]

Originally Posted by Marty Welk

Sort of what i am saying, is the Color bars are not USED as much for one of the major purposes they once had with analog signals.
and they also dont reflect the changes made in the digital arena to be totally effective.
They used to Display every Problem, issue, and incorrectness of an analog signal.
But
Digital doesnt have the Same problems analog has, it has a whole new array of issues and problems :-) called compression , bit processing, data fudging, cheap digital tricks. The old analog color bars dont do anything to show those problems. They wont very well show codec problems, artifacts, blocking, fringing, banding, noise, and all the new digital disasters that can occur. They wont show ALL the issues and problems with digital display devices either.

Yep,

But not sure how this relates to whether or not using a CRT broadcast monitor is viable. You say it's not, I say it is. So there ya go.

[Marty Welk]

Again i dont recall having hacked up a CRT display EVER.
do you read the posts? i specifically stated that the CRT has a fantastic capable picture, that LCDs do not.
my only premise is that my signal is now being processed for the purpose of display to the screen item that sits in the middle of someones living room that they paid good money for and believe that what i give them should look excellent ON IT. The 2 leftover CRTs moved to the bedrooms wont suffer from having a signal that looks great on thier primary tv.

without seeing what that looks like, i can make the most wonderfull Calibrated CRT display that exists, and it wont do the End user watching it on a LCD any good, unless i factored that into the equasion. (which could still be done on a CRT, with scopes or anything else)

just like i think they should factor more than the usual 40 year old color bars into the equasion. Stuff changed, and I change with it.
the end user could frankly care less that i used a $5000 monitor, if when they take out thier store bought movie and put in my video, it has more LCD problems than the movie. they will just know what they see, the movie looked great, and my stuff has LCD issues.

what is so difficult about my concepts? I did not invent digital, and i think it was a disservice to Sell digital as being "perfect" being able to 1-1 every pixel on the screen, then turn around an Compress it. the act/art of compression, does not make everything magically the "Same" like they were selling digital to do.

[Raymond Jebb]

Guys, thank you so much for your replies. I was just reading your replies and honestly I didn't understand 90% of it, except for Perrone Ford's first post where he talks about Firewire connection. Everything else was too tech and difficult for me. Sorry.

Yes, I do have HD footage that I would like to color correct on this monitor. I don't want to view that footage in HD resolution, but just want to see colors on a well calibrated CRT monitor so I know what the "standard" looks like. Correct me if I'm wrong, but if I have professionally color corrected material, that is broadcast standard that will give the material a "golden-middle" position. Basically, if there are million TVs that all have different qualities, settings etc broadcast-safe material would stay in the middle of a spectrum that no one knows how wide it is. I think what Perrone said really made sense to me. If it looks good on my LCD monitor, it would probably looks not so good on many other monitors because I have my monitor configured just to my taste. How many people have similar taste to me. not only that, but how many people have the same brand of monitor as I do? With a broadcast-safe material every end-user take that standard as a departure point and then adjust their image as they wish, to their taste... Am I missing something?

In the end, I don't have a lot of money, have a relatively cheap LCD monitor that I can't trust at all and can't afford an HD reference monitor and all I really want to do is to see real colors on my CRT :) Please tell me I didn't waste my $150 :))

[Marty Welk]

we already Both indicated that you did not waste your money.
the CRT will give you the correct colors (which is what you wanted), and watching your stuff also on the Nasty LCD screen :-) will allow you to insure that the picture will look good on that TOO, when that is what they watch it on.

all you have to do is figure out how to get a SD Analog Signal to it.

[Raymond Jebb]

Perrone, I've heard about that firewire solution as well. That's what I was intending to do before I bought this monitor. When I went to pick up the monitor the previous owner told me about connecting to the monitor directly from his computer via VGA-to-BNC... So I thought that would be an easier solution. But, I'm guessing VGA output Analog signal and my Macbook (I edit in Final Cut Studio 7) outputs digital via DVI and that is quite a difference right? On top of that, you mentioned that computer outputs different color space than the deck... Sorry, to be repetitive, just trying to really grasp whats going on...

I do have a camera that I can dedicate to this job. Canon HV20. If I use it a lot I will buy a cheaper cam in the future. This sounds like the quickest, cheapest and easiest solution for
someone like me. If I go with this solution, can I be comfortable knowing that I see good colors?

Your second solution (video board), - I looked at their web-site but I can't be really sure which product you meant specifically. I'm sorry, but would you be so kind to post a link? Blackmagic Design: Products I assume this solution would involve me putting some kind of card inside a computer. I have a Macbook laptop, not even a desktop so not sure if it's even possible...

In any case, your suggestion really lifted my spirits. Thank you again

[Raymond Jebb]

Marty, sorry. Didn't mean to ignore you or your suggestions, but as you can see I'm not very good in tech stuff and I didn't fully understand what you meant. I just really needed a straightforward explanation how to connect, where, what, etc.

In any case, I also appreciate your input. Thank you

[Josh Bass]

I don't know about $150, but the monitor I have (13" CRT, Sony PVM 14m2u) was around $400 used.

Here's the deal from way back when I got this thing, as I understand it.


Certain CRT monitors have certain phosphors that make them especially idea for color correction. There are two kinds to look for - SEMPTE C, which are the be all and end all of phosphors, and P22. The SEMPTE C monitors are much more expensive (or were) but are supposed to provide super accurate color reproduction, which means that you'll have the greatest chance of having the greatest number of people with all different kinds of tv sets, monitors, preferences, settings, etc. seeing your stuff the way it's supposed to look, or at least not to far from there. The P22s are supposed to be "good enough" for a lot of purposes. I think I remember something about monitors using SEMPTE C looking very different from how it would look on a typical TV set, but for some reason that was a good thing? Someone jump in here if I'm way off.

Personally, I use my monitor (which has P22 phosphors) to color correct my short films, a friend's feature film, and very occasionally my paid work. This is all SD stuff so far, so no experience with HD. I have seen my shorts and this friend's feature on several different projectors and TVs and the colors usually look bang on to what I saw when doing the color correction. I say usually 'cause some projectors are really bad, but maybe you have to try and accommodate those too.

[Raymond Jebb]

I assume this is the card: Blackmagic Design: Intensity ?

Unfortunately, I don't have a desktop or a PC that would take this. Will stick with the first the firewire solution, until I can make money to buy fancy stuff :))

[Perrone Ford]

Raymond,

Sounds like you understood what I said and meant perfectly. The HV20 will work just fine. When you start moving up to paid work, then upgrade your tools accordingly. And forget the DVI - Analog stuff. Also, I didn't realize you were on a laptop so forget the card.

I will ask this. Does your laptop have an s-video connection on it? I know some of my laptops have. If so, you can use this for color correction also, though it may not be as good as going to the camera if the camera has component out.

[Josh Bass]

Firewire should work just fine. . .I have noticed a lot of times if you use the monitor for watching your editing, though, that audio goes out of sync.