CRT monitor for color correction

Perrone Ford · January 6th, 2010, 06:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Josh Bass

Firewire should work just fine. . .I have noticed a lot of times if you use the monitor for watching your editing, though, that audio goes out of sync.

Yes, and many NLEs allow you to adjust for that with a configurable delay.

Craig Parkes · January 6th, 2010, 09:03 PM

Ok, here is my take on it.

Firstly, the colour gamut of HD is not quite the same as SD, (Rec.709 vs ITU.601 colour space). This makes a difference when you grade for HD off an SD source, even on a CRT, so there will be a difference between your SD CRT and an HD CRT - however there are VERY VERY FEW HD CRT's in the world, and certainly NONE in anyone's homes, and the difference isn't that dramatic.

Ideally, you would be colour grading to BOTH an LCD/PLASMA in HD and an SD CRT. In your setup the cheapest way to do that would be to try and visually match the LCD in your laptop to a correctly setup HD LCD monitor being fed a valid REC.709 signal.

I.e take your laptop into a post place with HD monitoring that is calibrated, look at a variety of footage on your monitor and their monitor, and change your laptop display settings so that they are as similiar as possible.

Then, when colour grading on your CRT, you'll have a simultaneous reference for what the picture is going to look like on a calibrated SD CRT and very much consumer level LCD panel that is also calibrated.

This combo is probably the most cost effective solution to get you in the ball park.

With a laptop, there are four products that will give you monitoring options - the AJO IO Express (Mac and Final Cut Only), The AJA IO HD (Mac and Final Cut Only), and the Matrox MXO 2 Mini, and the Avid Mojo DX (Avid Only). With the exception of the AJA IO HD, all of these require a laptop with a PCI Express card, an will allow you to output a full HD, correct REC.709 output from your laptop via HDSDI, and I believe will also do a realtime down conversion to SD, and should output a correct SDI signal of this, as well as regular SD output.

Some also provide HDMI output, and some also provide component output for both HD and SD - so amongst that pull of hardware, and their associated software solutions, you have access to everything you need to probably monitor a correct signal.

If you are monitoring via FIREWIRE to your camera then the signal is almost certainly being processed to DV for your monitoring, in which case even if you are editing a different codec it will go through DV compression to be displayed, which means you will potentially be seeing artifacting which ISN'T on your original footage (assuming your aren't mastering back to DV.)

Raymond Jebb · January 6th, 2010, 09:49 PM

I just fetched my Canon HV20 and alas, it doesn't S-Video out... It does have Component out, but it doesn't fit any of the inputs on the back of the monitor. I'm pretty sure this monitor has Component card (I may be wrong). I'm attaching a photo of the back of the monitor and also the cables that came with my HV20. Would you be so kind to explain to a dummy what I have? :)

I'm guessing I have two choices.

1. To buy a camcorder that has S-Video out

2. Or to somehow figure out what kind of inputs my monitor has and deal with that.

S-Video vs Component - which is better?

http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/i...ek/monitor.jpg

http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/i...k/monitor2.jpg

Thank you!

Raymond Jebb · January 6th, 2010, 09:52 PM

. sorry. double post below

Raymond Jebb · January 6th, 2010, 09:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Craig Parkes

Ok, here is my take on it.

Firstly, the colour gamut of HD is not quite the same as SD, (Rec.709 vs ITU.601 colour space). This makes a difference when you grade for HD off an SD source, even on a CRT, so there will be a difference between your SD CRT and an HD CRT - however there are VERY VERY FEW HD CRT's in the world, and certainly NONE in anyone's homes, and the difference isn't that dramatic.

Ideally, you would be colour grading to BOTH an LCD/PLASMA in HD and an SD CRT. In your setup the cheapest way to do that would be to try and visually match the LCD in your laptop to a correctly setup HD LCD monitor being fed a valid REC.709 signal.

I.e take your laptop into a post place with HD monitoring that is calibrated, look at a variety of footage on your monitor and their monitor, and change your laptop display settings so that they are as similiar as possible.

Then, when colour grading on your CRT, you'll have a simultaneous reference for what the picture is going to look like on a calibrated SD CRT and very much consumer level LCD panel that is also calibrated.

This combo is probably the most cost effective solution to get you in the ball park.

With a laptop, there are four products that will give you monitoring options - the AJO IO Express (Mac and Final Cut Only), The AJA IO HD (Mac and Final Cut Only), and the Matrox MXO 2 Mini, and the Avid Mojo DX (Avid Only). With the exception of the AJA IO HD, all of these require a laptop with a PCI Express card, an will allow you to output a full HD, correct REC.709 output from your laptop via HDSDI, and I believe will also do a realtime down conversion to SD, and should output a correct SDI signal of this, as well as regular SD output.

Some also provide HDMI output, and some also provide component output for both HD and SD - so amongst that pull of hardware, and their associated software solutions, you have access to everything you need to probably monitor a correct signal.

If you are monitoring via FIREWIRE to your camera then the signal is almost certainly being processed to DV for your monitoring, in which case even if you are editing a different codec it will go through DV compression to be displayed, which means you will potentially be seeing artifacting which ISN'T on your original footage (assuming your aren't mastering back to DV.)

Dear Craig,

Thanks a lot for this information. I'm certain this will be veru valuable down the road, but unfortunately right now this is (I'm sure) out of my league. on top of things I work on a MACBOOK, not even a MACBOOK PRO which would have a PCI Express card of slot. But it's very good to know the options and also to be aware of the details. But for now, for things that are not intended for major networks, but for festivals and the like I should be ok? That's all I need right now.

Comparing footage on my laptop and HD monitor is a great idea. I know someone at a film school in NYC who has access to the HD reference monitor. Thanks

Adam Gold · January 6th, 2010, 09:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raymond Jebb

S-Video vs Component - which is better?

Component. Just get some RCA to BNC connectors and you're set -- the RGB inputs are component. Just make sure you set the cam to output 480i to Component rather than 1080i.

Craig Parkes · January 6th, 2010, 11:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raymond Jebb

Dear Craig,

Thanks a lot for this information. I'm certain this will be veru valuable down the road, but unfortunately right now this is (I'm sure) out of my league. on top of things I work on a MACBOOK, not even a MACBOOK PRO which would have a PCI Express card of slot. But it's very good to know the options and also to be aware of the details. But for now, for things that are not intended for major networks, but for festivals and the like I should be ok? That's all I need right now.

Comparing footage on my laptop and HD monitor is a great idea. I know someone at a film school in NYC who has access to the HD reference monitor. Thanks

Absolutely you should be fine - for reference my first few HD music videos were graded on an iMac within Final Cut with an output using an old Sony trinitron as a second screen that I had calibrated to the colour bars on Final Cut, and we aimed for something we liked in between the look of the LCD and the Trinitron, and it proved to work pretty well for us in terms of how it looked on both a broadcast monitor and how it looked on LCD tv's.

As Adam has said all you need is RCA to BNC connectors - it's just a different sort of connector, signal wise going with component is fine.

Raymond Jebb · January 6th, 2010, 11:54 PM

That's great! I'll do that. I'm going to BH Photo tomorow.

I don't know if you noticed on the second photo, but the connection to HV20 that says "component out" doesn't look like an RCA connection, but more like some kind of firewire... There is another connection called AV/with headphone sign next to it - is that RCA? I don't know if that make a difference, but I'm guessing BH people should know...

Raymond Jebb · January 6th, 2010, 11:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adam Gold

Component. Just get some RCA to BNC connectors and you're set -- the RGB inputs are component. Just make sure you set the cam to output 480i to Component rather than 1080i.

Adam, may I ask why? Just curious.

HV20 has to options: 480i and 1080/480i

thank you

Adam Gold · January 7th, 2010, 12:43 AM

The three colored plugs in your second photo are just standard RCA component. I assume the other end of the cable just goes into the component out of your camcorder.

Don't use A/V -- that's composite, although with an SD monitor I guess it doesn't matter as much.

At least with the Sonys I have (monitors and cams) if you set Component Out to 1080i/480i. it won't show up on a 480 only screen. May not work the same with Canons.

Brian David Melnyk · January 7th, 2010, 01:36 AM

i think the argument is like mixing audio. using 'accurate' monitors is essential to know whether you are adjusting the frequencies that actually need adjustment, and you can actually hear how they are been adjusted. even though the end product will be played as an mp3 through an iPod or a home system that pumps up the bass and high end, at least you know that the master is a known quality that is as translatable to as many varied devices as possible. mixing through home stereo speakers for home stereo speakers only works for that set of speakers, and only in that particular room...
that said, i am CCing with a MBP and using the scopes like mad, and checking the results on a TV and other monitors... my next investment will be a Matrox MXO2 LE, i think, and a mac or dell display.

Ervin Farkas · January 7th, 2010, 07:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marty Welk

Why would i set monitors that i will compare what the average user will be seeing, to Red , or Green or anything else unless i want to see what happens when THEY do that. These Digital contraptions dont have a dial wheel for phase anymore, they come with many preset that users will decide on, then Mabey adjust from there for thier preferances. All i have to do is have a few of them on Standard, switch them up to vivid, try the sports mode, the cinema mode, and see what of my "Broadcast spec" picture doesnt any longer fit into "Digital reality of today".

If thier Standard in thier opinion is offset from the manufactures standards are set, well then they will still get the preferance they selected. all i need to know is when THEY set thier LCD screens that way, that MY signal still looks the way i intended. there are "legal" broadcast signals, and there are signals that look good on many LCDs, and THEY are still legal

Eventually, someone will have to tell you... let me be that bad boy. Marty, you are dead wrong. Sorry for being brutal, but you are defending a huge mistake.

No matter what the industry, there are standards, and there is custom work. What you teach is custom work. Just a very simple example: let's say you need a bed, a matress, and bedding. Manufacturers came together and set up standards - there are king, queen, full, etc sizes. So now you can walk into any store and buy with confidence... the mattress will fit in the bed, the sheets on the mattress, and so on. Just imagine what a chaos it would be without the standards.

The difference between right and wrong is called STANDARDS.

Professionals use standards.

Andy Tejral · January 7th, 2010, 07:36 AM

First, it looks like that monitor has the ability for different kinds of component video. I didn't see a switch on the back so there is probably a menu item.

Two, you may need terminators. Hard to tell from the picture, but some newer monitors have automatic termination others have a switch, others need external termination. Hard to believe that it would need external terminators but it is possible.

Also, I didn't see this answered, so, that component breakout you show in pic 2 plugs into the 'firewire' socket you mentioned (on the right, front of the camera). The real firewire socket is on the back.

Huh, I was sure that the cam had s-video but you're right. Also, remember, to get audio, you'll need to use the other A/V breakout cable.

Raymond Jebb · January 7th, 2010, 10:15 AM

Sorry, I'm confused. That component breakout on my HV20 - it seems it's not a standard RCA connection. I haven't found anything on the web resembling that kind of connection. They all look round, like those RGB connectors at the end of the cable. I can't find anywhere a connection that resembles my "firewire" connector on HV20.

Andy Tejral · January 7th, 2010, 10:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raymond Jebb

I don't know if you noticed on the second photo, but the connection to HV20 that says "component out" doesn't look like an RCA connection, but more like some kind of firewire... There is another connection called AV/with headphone sign next to it - is that RCA? I don't know if that make a difference, but I'm guessing BH people should know...

The R-G-B connectors are RCAs (or phono plug or pin plug). The other end is a semi-proprietary connector. Have no idea what it is called.

Plug that cable into the camera and the other end into the monitor (with the bnc--rca adapters).

You'll also need the A/V breakout cable for audio. (that's a 1/8" or 3.5mm connector).

January 6th, 2010, 09:03 PM	#32
Craig Parkes Major Player Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Auckland, New Zealand Posts: 444	Ok, here is my take on it. Firstly, the colour gamut of HD is not quite the same as SD, (Rec.709 vs ITU.601 colour space). This makes a difference when you grade for HD off an SD source, even on a CRT, so there will be a difference between your SD CRT and an HD CRT - however there are VERY VERY FEW HD CRT's in the world, and certainly NONE in anyone's homes, and the difference isn't that dramatic. Ideally, you would be colour grading to BOTH an LCD/PLASMA in HD and an SD CRT. In your setup the cheapest way to do that would be to try and visually match the LCD in your laptop to a correctly setup HD LCD monitor being fed a valid REC.709 signal. I.e take your laptop into a post place with HD monitoring that is calibrated, look at a variety of footage on your monitor and their monitor, and change your laptop display settings so that they are as similiar as possible. Then, when colour grading on your CRT, you'll have a simultaneous reference for what the picture is going to look like on a calibrated SD CRT and very much consumer level LCD panel that is also calibrated. This combo is probably the most cost effective solution to get you in the ball park. With a laptop, there are four products that will give you monitoring options - the AJO IO Express (Mac and Final Cut Only), The AJA IO HD (Mac and Final Cut Only), and the Matrox MXO 2 Mini, and the Avid Mojo DX (Avid Only). With the exception of the AJA IO HD, all of these require a laptop with a PCI Express card, an will allow you to output a full HD, correct REC.709 output from your laptop via HDSDI, and I believe will also do a realtime down conversion to SD, and should output a correct SDI signal of this, as well as regular SD output. Some also provide HDMI output, and some also provide component output for both HD and SD - so amongst that pull of hardware, and their associated software solutions, you have access to everything you need to probably monitor a correct signal. If you are monitoring via FIREWIRE to your camera then the signal is almost certainly being processed to DV for your monitoring, in which case even if you are editing a different codec it will go through DV compression to be displayed, which means you will potentially be seeing artifacting which ISN'T on your original footage (assuming your aren't mastering back to DV.) __________________ www.afterglow.co.nz

January 7th, 2010, 12:43 AM	#40
Adam Gold Inner Circle Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Woodinville, WA USA Posts: 3,467	The three colored plugs in your second photo are just standard RCA component. I assume the other end of the cable just goes into the component out of your camcorder. Don't use A/V -- that's composite, although with an SD monitor I guess it doesn't matter as much. At least with the Sonys I have (monitors and cams) if you set Component Out to 1080i/480i. it won't show up on a 480 only screen. May not work the same with Canons. __________________ "It can only be attributable to human error... This sort of thing has cropped up before, and it has always been due to human error."

January 7th, 2010, 07:36 AM	#43
Andy Tejral Major Player Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: New York City Posts: 523	First, it looks like that monitor has the ability for different kinds of component video. I didn't see a switch on the back so there is probably a menu item. Two, you may need terminators. Hard to tell from the picture, but some newer monitors have automatic termination others have a switch, others need external termination. Hard to believe that it would need external terminators but it is possible. Also, I didn't see this answered, so, that component breakout you show in pic 2 plugs into the 'firewire' socket you mentioned (on the right, front of the camera). The real firewire socket is on the back. Huh, I was sure that the cam had s-video but you're right. Also, remember, to get audio, you'll need to use the other A/V breakout cable. __________________ Andy Tejral Railroad Videographer

January 6th, 2010, 09:49 PM	#33
Raymond Jebb Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: New York Posts: 27	I just fetched my Canon HV20 and alas, it doesn't S-Video out... It does have Component out, but it doesn't fit any of the inputs on the back of the monitor. I'm pretty sure this monitor has Component card (I may be wrong). I'm attaching a photo of the back of the monitor and also the cables that came with my HV20. Would you be so kind to explain to a dummy what I have? :) I'm guessing I have two choices. 1. To buy a camcorder that has S-Video out 2. Or to somehow figure out what kind of inputs my monitor has and deal with that. S-Video vs Component - which is better? http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/i...ek/monitor.jpg http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/i...k/monitor2.jpg Thank you!

January 6th, 2010, 09:52 PM	#34
Raymond Jebb Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: New York Posts: 27	. sorry. double post below

January 6th, 2010, 11:54 PM	#38
Raymond Jebb Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: New York Posts: 27	That's great! I'll do that. I'm going to BH Photo tomorow. I don't know if you noticed on the second photo, but the connection to HV20 that says "component out" doesn't look like an RCA connection, but more like some kind of firewire... There is another connection called AV/with headphone sign next to it - is that RCA? I don't know if that make a difference, but I'm guessing BH people should know...

January 7th, 2010, 01:36 AM	#41
Brian David Melnyk Major Player Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Winnipeg Canada Posts: 532	i think the argument is like mixing audio. using 'accurate' monitors is essential to know whether you are adjusting the frequencies that actually need adjustment, and you can actually hear how they are been adjusted. even though the end product will be played as an mp3 through an iPod or a home system that pumps up the bass and high end, at least you know that the master is a known quality that is as translatable to as many varied devices as possible. mixing through home stereo speakers for home stereo speakers only works for that set of speakers, and only in that particular room... that said, i am CCing with a MBP and using the scopes like mad, and checking the results on a TV and other monitors... my next investment will be a Matrox MXO2 LE, i think, and a mac or dell display.

January 7th, 2010, 10:15 AM	#44
Raymond Jebb Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: New York Posts: 27	Sorry, I'm confused. That component breakout on my HV20 - it seems it's not a standard RCA connection. I haven't found anything on the web resembling that kind of connection. They all look round, like those RGB connectors at the end of the cable. I can't find anywhere a connection that resembles my "firewire" connector on HV20.