What can I salvage from my current NLE?
 

Hi folks-
I'm brand new to the forum, at least brand new since I last posted probably in 2005. I need input as to what I can salvage from my current NLE to build one that will edit AVCHD. My current setup, as I tried to build it up, is certainly not cutting it.
What I have:
Adobe CS4 4.1
Windows XP Pro 32-bit
Dell Optiplex 745 MB w/ Intel Pentium D 3.4 ghz
8.0gb ram (DDR2)
NVidia GeForce 9800 GT Video card
430 watt PS
1- 400gb 7200rpm SATA for the OS and apps
2- 1tb 7200rpm SATA in RAID 1 config for data

Do I need to start from scratch? Can I use the DDR2 RAM w/ i7 processor? Any input would be greatly appreciated!

Paul

You'll have to purchase mostly new components and software for a new NLE system. The Intel i7 processor requires DDR3 memory (it will not work at all with your existing DDR2 memory). And during all of those years you had been using only about 3GB of your current system's 8GB of RAM due to the limitations of 32-bit versions of Windows (roughly 5GB of memory became dormant and unusable). Plus, the Pentium D processor (in the case of your particular system, the Presler-core Pentium D 945) is very inefficient and outdated even by current entry-level standards. (And please note that during the production lifespan of the Optiplex 745, it was available with either a Pentium D 9xx series CPU or a Core 2 Duo E6xxx series CPU. The best-performing CPU that you can put onto the Optiplex 745's motherboard is a Core 2 Duo E6700.)

On the "plus" side (if I can even call this a "plus"), the 9800 GT is OK but is beginning to show its age. And the gains from RAIDing two 1TB drives in a RAID 1 (mirroring) array are debatable. Plus, your system boot drive is slow by modern standards (a 400GB hard drive of your system's era used three 133GB platters whereas newer hard drives now use 500GB platters).

In other words, the two 1TB hard drives plus maybe the graphics card are the only components that can be carried over into a new build. And you will need a 64-bit version of Windows (Windows 7 is strongly recommended rather than Vista or XP) in order for your system to see more than about 3GB of RAM.

Thanks Randall. So are 7200 RPM SATA drives fast enough for data, I just need to upgrade the OS drive to a faster drive?

If I purchase a motherboard that is i7 I can just replace the existing motherboard in my existing tower?

That makes sense on th 3GB of RAM, when I boot I see where it shows 8mb RAM but when I'm inside the system specs said only 3GB and I thought I was going crazy.

Paul,

Your Optiplex 745 minitower system will not accept any standard ATX or even microATX form factor motherboards at all. You'll have to special-order a microBTX motherboard, which is now nearly impossible to find.

As such, you'll have to purchase an entirely new case in order to even accomodate a standard form-factor motherboard.

Randall, as I did with Harm, I need to correct the 'idea' that Raid 1 offers no performance benefit over a single drive. Everything from onboard Intel software Raid to Areca/LSI/Adaptec hardware raid controllers can read from both drives simultaneously, which increases MB/s read throughput in addition to random access. There are many benchmarks online illustrating this. In addition, I noticed booting times of about 40% faster with 2 drives in Raid 1 vs a single drive (in my business partners Dell). Furthermore, Raid 10 offers a similar performance improvement. Heck, good hardware raid controllers can match Raid 0 read speeds when using Raid 10. This is partly why I use Raid 10 with my Areca rather than Raid 5 - better read speeds, faster random access, and no parity to calculate when a drive fails.

Paul, everything else Randall has said is dead on accurate.

Upgrading to Windows 7 Pro 64bit will provide a very noticeable performance increase by itself. If you buy another Dell, make sure it has at least 3 hard drive bays. Even their high end XPS systems only have 2 with an 5.25" optical bay converter for a third, but that bay has NO airflow so I recommend not using it unless you get a SSD or Velociraptor for the OS. For $80 or $90, you can now get 74GB Velociraptors (via newegg).

Paul,

Start from scratch. It's easier. I would opt not to utilize the old hard drives in the new system. I try to make it a habit to upgrade hard drives every two years with the amount my machines are on. Hard drive space isn't that expensive, and I'd rather be safe than sorry.

Go with an i7 system (9xx series, forget the 8xx series) with 12GB RAM and get a video card that is on Adobe's list of approved cards for CS5/MPE hardware engine. I have a GeForce GTX 285 with 2GB RAM, and I love it. It's on the list. Make sure you have a good sized power supply, as the more powerful equipment needs more power (duh). I'd suggest maybe an 850W, making sure you get a high quality brand. Don't skimp on the power supply.

Hard drives: Go with a multiple drive RAID array, preferably not RAID 1. AVCHD needs fast drives, especially if you are using a higher bitrate like the Canon DSLRs shoot. Further, you should probably look at transcoding into a more edit-friendly codec such as NeoScene (or NeoHD... FirstLight is incredible and I have something new to spend more money on soon). This will increase your bitrate even further on the files, so hard drive performance is critical.

Remember that lots of drives make lots of heat. Your case selection is important. I like the big CoolerMaster cases if you are going with a tower system. Personally I run a rackmount 4u system, and I run all my drives in an external hotswappable rackmount unit to keep the heat away from my processor.

Will 7200rpm drives cut it for the RAID array? I had just purchased two 1tb Seagate drives for this. What about the OS drive, 7200rpm work?

And I was setting up RAID1 because as I understood it that was the config to run so the drives mirrored each other? Which RAID should config should I run?

I wouldn't use a RAID 1 for your video drive. That's all. Your options:

Video in RAID 0 (2 drive min, but I would suggest 3 or more). This gives you NO redundancy, but is fast and cheap. You'll most likely want some external drives with large sizes that you can store backups of your media on. With AVCHD, I usually just transfer my footage from CF card to the external first, then run Neoscene and transcode to the cineform codec with the output being pushed to my video array. That makes one copy, one transcode rather than two copies, one transcode and saves time. If for some reason I lose my video array because a hard drive fails, I can rebuild the array and then push the original files from the camera (on the external drive now) through Neoscene and back onto the raid array.

Video in RAID 5, RAID 6, or RAID 30. Gives redundancy at the cost of using more drives for that redundancy. You'll also want an external array if you are doing this. Oh, and you DO NOT want to use Seagate Barracuda drives for this... use enterprise class drives. I couldn't figure out for the life of me why I kept having my RAID 5 break, and it ended up being a problem with those drives that I don't believe has ever been corrected. They have no problem in RAID 0 however.

I agree with not using a consumer desktop drive for high-level RAID use.

And yes, I agree that more drives in a RAID 0 array will improve performance up to the maximum practical limit of the SATA or RAID controller. After all, if an onboard SATA RAID controller is rated for only 300 MB/s maximum, the performance improvement in the RAID 0 array could be controller-limited with as few as three drives. Plus, most of the very fastest systems in the PPBM4 benchmark recommended to me all have multi-thousand-dollar ($3,000+) external RAID arrays ranging from eight to 12 drives.

And my particular system did pretty well (overclocked or stock) in that PPBM4 benchmark even though it has only a simple dual-drive RAID 0 array and 6GB of RAM. Most of the other i7 systems on the results list have 12GB of RAM.

Craig, I don't know what exactly your problem was but I have been using each of the last 3 generations of Seagate desktop drive in Raid 1, 5 and 10 and never had a problem with the drives (while using 3ware and Areca true hardware raid controllers).

On a side note: this doesn't necessarily apply to Paul but it still is important. With large raid arrays and large drives, using enterprise drives to protect your data is important for one specific reason - UER. Unrecoverable Error Rate. Consumer/desktop sata drives are only 1x10^14; enterprise sata/sas are 1x10^15 and enterprise sas 10k/15k rpm are 1x10^16. When using several desktop sata 1-2TB drives in a raid array, your chances of problems are rather high. I was oblivious to this until recently and that is why I am switching to the new Seagate Constellation ES drives. Furthermore, SAS provides another benefit in error correction on both reads and writes.

Back on topic: I have found computer problems to almost always happen at the worst time. This is why I choose Raid 1 at a minimum for important data. Imagine working 6+ hrs on a project in Premiere and a drive has a problem. I don't know about you but that time is easily worth the money spent on extra drives to give me redundancy. Oh yeah, don't forget the time lost while reloading the data from your backups.

Steve,

I think the problem may have been confined to the 7200.11 series Barricuda drives by Seagate. It was an issue with the drives temporarily going into an unresponsive state long enough for the RAID controller to think the drive went bad. They would come back online after the momentary lapse, but the problem was when two drives had this issue overlap in a RAID 5. The controller would then immediately think it had a broken array, and there wasn't any recovery available at that point.

I agree on the RAID 1. I put my project files in a RAID 1, while leaving my video files in Cineform codec on the RAID 0. If the RAID 0 goes down, I just convert the files in Neoscene again from my external drives the source footage is stored on.

Randall,

You don't have to spend thousands. Look at Highpoint RocketRaid as your controller. For $150 (4 port) or $260 (8 port) you can get a nice controller that is fine for video production. Mine is the 2322, and it has 2 external miniSAS that connect to my Norco Technologies 12 bay rackmount. The external portion isn't necessary, it's a luxury for me, though it's how I can afford to overclock my machine to 4.2ghz. Getting the hard drives out of the same chassis as the CPU makes a big difference in temps.

Thanks guys. So far I have a CoolerMaster chassis, an Asus P6T S1366 motherboard with the i7 930 processor.

Question on the Asus P6T, I know it will do RAID control but will this also be sufficient as my RAID controller?

Since I already have a pair of 1tb Seagate drives I'm going to give those a shot for the RAID drives.

Next up is Video Card, Power Supply and boot drive. I looked into the GeForce GTX 285, and it is pricey, is there anything slightly less that will fit the bill?

Paul,

If you are going to use Premiere CS5 as your NLE, then don't buy anything other than what is on Adobe's certified list. The 285 is on that list, and I can tell you it's a great card. I have the 2GB version.

The ASUS P6T is fine for RAID as long as you are fine with the limited amount of ports. Remember that you'll need to account for your DVD/BluRay burners that use SATA when counting up your drives.

For the other stuff, just make sure you don't skimp on the power supply. Go with an 850w or higher, with an established brand. Do your research on Newegg.com, they have plenty of reviews. I'd possibly go with one like this:

Newegg.com - CORSAIR CMPSU-850TX 850W ATX12V 2.2 / EPS12V 2.91 SLI Ready CrossFire Ready Active PFC Power Supply

Keep in mind that one is not modular. Some people prefer modular, but those people are mostly gamers. Boot drive: Western Digital Velociraptor or an SSD (though you need to research SSDs... not all perform well as boot drives). If you have questions on which SSD to use, post them up here. One of us should be able to answer you.

Oh... and lastly, do NOT purchase any of the "green" hard drives that spin down for any drives that need to remain powered at all times within your system. They are fine for archival, but their performance sucks.

Paul, the ASUS P6T is an excellent choice (its what I currently use).

A word of advice, if I may: get a good cpu cooler for your initial installation. Adding one later can be a real pain the a$$. For max efficiency and low noise, the Noctua is the best. Newegg.com - Noctua NH-U12P SE2 120mm SSO CPU Cooler
You can spend a little less, but you either sacrifice cooling and/or increase noise.

If you plan to upgrade to CS5, you might consider getting 3 sticks of 4GB ram, which will leave you with 3 free slots to add more down the road. Its a little more money for 3 - 4GB sticks versus 6 2GB sticks but its an option to consider. Just get at least 1333MHz ram so you can overclock if you ever decide to.

For power supply, Corsair has an excellent reputation. The 650w is more than enough for your currently proposed system (GTX 285, 3-4 drives, i7 930). I use a PC Power & Cooling 750w with an i7, 10 drives, 2 hardware Raid controllers (3ware & Areca), nvidia 8800GT, that Noctua cpu cooler and 6 case fans.

Also, a modular power supply is very nice to have since you can remove unused cables, which helps keep clutter down and maximize airflow.

The built in Raid is certainly good enough for Raid 0 or 1. Just NEVER use it for Raid 5.

For the OS and application drive, you can't go wrong with the 74GB Velociraptor, especially since its only $90 Newegg.com - Western Digital VelociRaptor WD740BLFS 74GB 10000 RPM 16MB Cache SATA 3.0Gb/s 2.5" Internal Hard Drive -Bare Drive
And add $5-10 for an adapter to fit this 2.5" drive in either a regular 3.5" slot or a 5.25" optical bay.

However, for the ultimate OS drive, the Intel X25 80GB ($220) drive is utterly fast. This is what I use in all of my PCs now, whereas I used multiple 10,000 rpm Raptors in Raid 0 before. And let me tell you, a single Intel X25 SSD makes those Raptors feel like they were 10yrs old.

I hope this info helps.

Actually, that's only recommended if you want to use the GPU acceleration feature of Premiere Pro CS5's MPE. And with the GTX 285 now at the end of its production life (and is now very hard to find), the least expensive current card which takes advantage of the GPU acceleration now costs well over $800.

Fortunately, MPE does have a software-only mode (compatible with any Open GL 2.0-compatible card) which is actually more efficient than CS4's playback engine ever was. Of course, a faster processor and/or more RAM will always help CS5's software-only performance.

Not sure who in their right mind would choose NOT to utilize GPU acceleration if given the option. I don't care if the 285 is end of production life or not, it's still a great card and is on the list. We aren't gamers here, we're editors. End of production life doesn't mean end of support or end of driver upgrades. It means you aren't paying double the price for a card just to say you get 120 FPS on <insert video game name here>.

Paul, Steve is right on with everything he said. Good advice, especially the Noctua cooler and the Intel SSD, both of which are running in my current machine. As far as GPU acceleration in MPE, you WANT that. It is a big difference between GPU and software acceleration. If you want to go cheap and build a minimal system with software acceleration, move to Edius as your NLE.

Actually, I was not talking gaming in my previous post. I was talking availability. (And what I meant by an over-$800 card is a Quadro FX 3800 - the next least expensive supported card after the GTX 285 - not a gaming card.)

And you are correct that the software rendering is not the best way to go regardless of the video editing software. Some of the software "acceleration" doesn't work well at all, taking a relatively long time just to preview even low-definition (240p) video.

This is awesome advice guys! I really appreciate it!
I picked up a 300gb Velociraptor drive for the boot drive and an Azza Titan 850w PS. I hope the PS is good enough quality? I've never heard of it but the guy at Micro Center recommended it (not that that really means squat).

Newegg.com - AZZA Titan 850 850W ATX & EPS 12V 2.92 SLI Ready CrossFire Ready 80 PLUS Certified Active PFC Power Supply


Question for the CPU cooler, are you referring to the fan part that actually mounts over and touches the processor? The i7 came with a fan/heatsink and I've installed it on the motherboard in the chassis already. Is the "cooler" that came with the i7 not sufficient?

I havent looked online for a GTX 285 yet, I looked when I was at MicroCenter yesterday and they were out. Sales guy did say they rarely have them in.

I guess I'm getting there slowly but surely. I can't wait to be finished so I can fire this bad boy up and start editing all my HD footage.

I would return the Azza power supply. I have never heard of them and the power supply is the single most important part of a system....because it is the only part that can destroy an entire computer. Furthermore, that Azza has only a 1yr warranty whereas it should be a minimum of 3 if not 5yrs (Corsair has 5yr warranty) Newegg.com - CORSAIR CMPSU-650TX 650W ATX12V / EPS12V SLI Ready CrossFire Ready 80 PLUS Certified Active PFC Compatible with Core i7 Power Supply

Paul,

Steve is right again about the power supply... I'd suggest following that direction and going with the Corsair. I've also never heard of Azzo, and it would suck to have a PSU go out and cause damage to expensive equipment.

As far as the CPU fan goes, yes, that is technically a fan provided by Intel. I have about 8 of them brand new sitting in a drawer in my office, because I don't use the stock Intel ones. They are somewhat adequate at stock speeds, but the 920 and 930 procs were designed for overclocking. They BEG for overclocking. Get the Noctua that Steve referenced (either the D12 or D14). They are great. Just make sure that if your RAM has a heat sink on it, it can be removed. I had to remove the heat sink from the slot closest to the CPU with my Corsair Dominator RAM.

Oh... and video card. You can do one of two things: Buy something crappy and then spend money again when you want to upgrade to hardware acceleration with CS5, double spending, or buy a GTX 285 now and edit now. GTX 285 is on the list of approved cards, nothing in the future is yet. Can't keep waiting for the future if you have projects queued up now, right?

I wanted to chime in here briefly... I am about to return a "high end" HP system I received two days ago due to horrendous design and engineering (HP Elite 190). I abandoned all my years of experience and common sense with video editing computer systems and ordered this computer due to the great financing HP was offering. Shame on me for being so short-sighted...

The system has a i7 980x processor and 16 gb of RAM, BUT is only equipped with a 460 watt power supply. It has an Nvidia 260 GTX that runs so hot that I cannot touch it after 10 minutes. The video card fan exhausts the hot air directly on the underpowered power supply! The 980x draws 260+ watts. The video card draws over 260+ watts. This is called an accident waiting to happen. I was trying to update my older Q6600 editing machine, but I guess I'm better off using the original case, it's Thermaltake 750 watt power supply, and all the built-in ventilation systems the case has.

I've never re-built a system with a new motherboard, processor, and connecting it all with the power supply, hard drives, etc... I'm very comfortable adding and upgrading components... Is it relatively easy to take the next step and put together the entire system?

Thanks for any advice.

Safe to assume a GTX 470 is ok in place of the GTX 285 for a video card?

The 285 is certified...even though other cards may be "newer" or "bigger", they haven't been tested.

I suspect the cards that Adobe has on "the list" will continue to grow as new ones come out.

There is a hack that someone has posted here on DVinfo that will enable other NVIDIA CUDA cards to be "visible" to Mercury... If there are problems for the user, Adobe can't support cards they haven't verified, so the user would then have to "un-hack" and just get a card that's on the list i suppose.

On the rest of this configuration stuff... I'd echo the power supply remarks. get one that's a solid brand and is much more than you need...because down the road you may add stuff. These big iron display cards draw some serious juice as well...

Ok folks, I'm clueless I guess.

I have everything hooked but when I turn the dang thing on I get no video. What am I doing wrong? Here's the scenario-
MB, PSU, Memory, HDs, DVD/CD/drive and graphics card are all plugged in.
I am using my GeForce 9800GTX for now until I can get the GTX 285 next week.
I power up, MB lights up, all the fans are running, fan on the video card is running (so I assume it has power?)

I assumed when I powered up for the first time the Asus MB would go into BIOS mode and I would see this on the monitor. That's not happening.

And, just exactly what is the process on a new build? Setup BIOS first, then what? Install OS? I would have to do that before I could install drivers for HDs, Video Card etc right?? And what about teh drivers for the CD drive? Willteh CD drive work without the drivers? What comes first teh chicken or the egg LOL? I'm sligthly confused.

I see no where in any manuals that I need to supply separate power to 9800GTX, and if I did there is only a small 2 pin male plug on it so I assume it doesnt require separate power from the PSU?

So in summary, my first issue is getting video so I can run through the BIOS setup.

Any clarification here would be great.
Thanks,
Paul

Have you tried both DVI connections?

Yes, both monitors are hooked up.

Any suggestions as to what I should try to get video going so I can proceed? Both monitors are hooked up to the card so both outputs have been tried.

After reading the first line of your latest question, I immediately thought "power to the GPU is missing". From the two boards listed on Newegg with the 9800GTX (EVGA and PNY), both have a 6 pin PCIe power connector at the bottom, which is probably not visible when the card is installed in the machine. If you are hearing fans spin up (and maybe hard drives) without any error code beeps, this is most likely your issue.

Thanks Craig. It is PNY, but, it is 9800 GT not a GTX. Sorry about the mis post. Also, it is an"EE" model, energy efficient. To further clarify, it is the "XLR8 Performance Edition" 1024mb.

Now, there is no 6 pin for power anywhere, or 4 pin. The ONLY jack on the card is at the top and it is small 2 pin male jack, white. Its located next to the jumper connection. I have searched and searched on the web, I find nothing about installation that matches this card exactly, so I am at a loss as to whether or not the jack I just mentioned is for power??

Anybody have any idea on this? Thanks.

I tried the 9800 GT in my other box and it works. So I've done something in the building of my new machine that is affecting the displays. Could the MB be bad? Should I return it and try a new on?

Also, you guys can go ahead and laugh at this one cuz again, clueless here, but the Asus P6T MB, I assume I need to hook an internal speaker up to it somewhere? I ask this because I dont see anything on the board for this connection. Yes the MB is hooked up to the case audio, and that is hooked up to speakers but I'm not gonna get any audio from that until OS and drivers and stuff are installed right? So, if I were getting error beeps, how would I hear them?? Man, this building a new box stuff is confusing.

Paul,

Are you sure you have the EATX12V connector plugged in properly? If you are looking at your motherboard in an orientation with the RAM slots in the top left corner, that connector will be in the bottom left corner. Try that... unseat that connector and reseat it.

As for the internal speaker, there is a connection for that on the system panel connector. The speaker plug will cover four jumper pins... +5v, Ground, Ground, Speaker. Try to get that speaker in there and then let us know which error beeps you get if the system still won't boot.

Lastly, simplify if you still won't boot. Take out all cards other than the video card. Populate only one bank of RAM (A1, B1, C1). Disconnect all SATA ports except your OS drive and DVD burner. If that gets the system to boot, add those things back in one at a time as a process of elimination to see what is causing the issue.

Craig, where do I send the case of beer my friend? Up and running! It was theEATX12V connector. Duh. Thanks for all your help.

Paul

Paul,

Good to hear! Case of beer or Prod Prem CS5 upgrade... I'm good with anything =p

I'm sure one day I'll have a question that you can answer and then we'll be even. Until then, I'll just be happy that I could help. That's what these forums are for, and I've received plenty of help from others recently on issues that I hadn't had much time to study up on recently. Editing and having 3 young kids takes away from my time tinkering with new technology.

Hey Craig, Dell and HP should hire you to teach their tech support how to ACTUALLY do their job.

Good job!

Steve, I formerly was an employee of Microsoft supporting their developer (programming languages) and enterprise server technologies. I also was an IT manager for a while. I decided to get into video production to explore my creative side, as the IT industry wasn't really feeding that need of mine. Now I have my own small production company (a one man band), and am a stay at home dad as well. It's a hard juggling act, especially given that my kids are young still. Company is growing slowly but steadily.

As far as Dell and HP (and most other companies), in my own opinion, the best thing they could ever do is move their support services back to the U.S. I used to solely recommend Dell machines for those that didn't need a custom machine, and over the past few years have realized that Dell apparently doesn't value product quality as much anymore. Further, calling tech support is a nightmare for those that I know, having to deal a lot of times with long hold times and overly empathetic customer service people with thick accents. I don't want to hear "I'm sorry sir" a million times in one phone call used as filler, I want someone who can diagnose using trained skills and not just read a bunch of questions off a checklist that I can find for myself online.