Which Raid at DVinfo.net

Steven Davis · April 21st, 2016, 10:14 AM

Looking for a Raid solution I'm contemplating between, http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1224324-REG/wd_wdbvbz0120jch_nesn_12tb_my_cloud_ex2.html
and http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/927498-REG/drobo_10tb_5_x_2tb.html
I would have to sell an arm and a leg for the Drobo, but both of them have Ethernet connections.

The last Mybook I had died, albeit it was a civilian version. Just not sure.

Paul Mailath · April 25th, 2016, 09:18 PM

Your WD can only do RAID 0 (which isn't really a raid at all) or Raid 1 - mirror

The Drobo with 5 bays should do Raid 5 but only mentions BeyondRAID which makes me nervous - I'm not sure what it is and exactly how it works and you can't get 10Tb of raid storage out of 5 2Tb drives

I've used Synology storage for years and apart from having to replace a couple of drives they run 24/7 year in year out

how about this:
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1215992-REG/synology_diskstation_ds416j.htmlget some 2Tb or 4Tb drives and you're good to go

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RAID

Mike Watson · April 25th, 2016, 10:31 PM

1) NAS is "network attached storage" which means you'll be running at network speed instead of disk speed, which is (probably) too slow for reliable video editing. You are not plugging a disk into your computer; this disk is another miniature computer on your network. It is possible to achieve gigabit speeds out of it, but your whole network has to be gigabit, and you need a masters degree to get the whole network going, plus a nerd to live in your basement to troubleshoot it from time to time. I have had gigabit NAS before, but I could never get it to be predictable and reliable for video editing.

2) My understanding (which, if it wasn't clear from the previous point, is fleeting at best) is that RAID5 is a pretty universal thing, and if you need to do data recovery, it's possible. My understanding of Drobo is that they don't use RAID5, they use a proprietary thing that is like RAID5, and if you need to do recovery (which, if you're going to be using a RAID very long, I would consider to be a sure thing someday), it is difficult and expensive. I have shied away for this reason.

Some years ago, everybody I know used the CalDigit RAIDs from OWC. OWC provided me substandard support at some point and I stopped using them, and there are not a lot of options out there at this point. When you can buy a single 8TB drive, the need for RAID is less and less. If I didn't have a bias against OWC, I would suggest you use them. Since I do, I don't have any recommendation really. And I'm in the market right now as well.

Andy Wilkinson · April 25th, 2016, 11:56 PM

I use numerous G-Tech G-RAID units including a 12TB 4-Bay G-Speed Studio R Thunderbolt 2 unit linked to my new Mac Pro...wonder when it just becomes another MP...anyway, the "trashcan" one!

It is running in RAID-5 configuration (the default it is supplied with) and so gives 9TB of usable space, but can do RAID-0 if you really want the speed (and risk). They do various sizes and models in the range.

Current work in progress projects live on this unit with backups in various other locations including on numerous WD Scorpio Black hard drives in a safe - just connected to my systems as needed via various Icy Docks.

Pretty pleased with the G-Speed...Not cheap but, touch wood, I have yet to have any of my G-Tech units fail on me (I have 8 others, various models). It has a glossy black finish which is a dust magnet and it is not exactly silent either...the fan inside is certainly pretty audible ...but then no G-RAID system I've ever used in the last 8 years has been as quiet as I would like.

Phil Goetz · April 26th, 2016, 10:17 AM

Hardware RAID versus software RAID?
You need 3 drives minimum to do RAID5. If one drive goes down you are still good.
There is a argument to be made for RAID 1+0 over RAID 5 because with the former there is less going on behind the scenes in terms of cache and data read out and potential data loss.

Too bad NAS isn't more reliable. I'm in a direct attach pile-o-drives scenario and always make sure to have files saved in at least two places.

Steven Davis · May 2nd, 2016, 05:10 PM

Well, I'm trying to find a Raid 5 system for my PC. I built my Asus X99 system last year, and remembered that the board specs offered Thunderbolt support. So after about an hour of support with Asus, there is a card https://www.asus.com/us/Motherboard-...nderboltEX_II/ that will work with my board.

My hesitation is that if I buy the card, the drive array and the card goes out, then i'm a little stuck.

I did call OWC and asked them about their array, and according to them, their raid software doesn't work with PC. So they're out.

The Promise Pegasus only offers one model that has a USB and Thunderbolt, but it's their Products - Pegasus2 Series | Thunderbolt2 Storage | PROMISE Technology which is only Raid 0/1

I have one G-Drive thunderbolt drive, it's solid, so if I go any route for a Raid 5, it will probably be from them.

I know I sound like someone listening to 8-track tapes, but I just built this PC in June/15, so I think I only need a couple of years before I switch over to FCPX for good. It's like I'm between relationships.

I do need to solve this throughput issue, my editing is getting hung up on my internal sata drives.

Mike Watson · May 2nd, 2016, 05:56 PM

Editing is getting hung up on your internal SATA drives... because of storage space, or speed? I have edited uncompressed 10 bit off internal SATA drives. What codec are you editing in?

Chris Medico · May 2nd, 2016, 05:58 PM

Lets back up a notch. What is the purpose of this storage system?

Steven Davis · May 2nd, 2016, 06:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Medico

Lets back up a notch. What is the purpose of this storage system?

I'm editing MXF files which are 50mbps. I want the raid array for a large project I have coming; I want to use it as a scratch-n-backup solution all in one. Obviously Raid 0 gives me the best speed, but not the backup. Although I do backup my projects twice including the scratch location.

Ron Evans · May 2nd, 2016, 08:09 PM

I have a Vantec HX4R USB3 external RAID that I run in RAID 5 for source backup. Vantec ? Product. Not expensive and works fine. I use for backups while editing on a straight 4T drive and small 2T RAID 0 internal.

Ron Evans

Chris Medico · May 2nd, 2016, 08:19 PM

My thoughts,

I recommend a different strategy. RAID is not a backup replacement. Dollar for dollar a few drives with the footage backed up across them is a FAR better strategy.

RAID excels at making a drive space large and fast enough for your online project. If you don't need a huge storage pool a SSD will exceed the performance of a RAID5 setup with fewer than 7 drives. It will stomp all over ANY NAS regardless of the number of drives. Ethernet will limit your data rate to under 100MB/S if its fabulous.

Real world example - I have a RAID5 setup here because the feature film I've been working on is about 10TB of 4k footage. To get real time playback of multiple streams of 4k it requires a RAID. I have 3 additional copies of the film in addition to the RAID copy. The RAID5 setup here is good for about 400-600MB/S of throughput. It is a hardware RAID with a dedicated controller. It is built from five 4TB drives. It is 16TB after the RAID overhead is taken out.

How much footage are you dealing with at once in a project? For smaller projects I buy 500GB-1TB SSDs and drop them in a USB SATA adapter. Makes for a very clean setup. They are dirt cheap (relatively speaking). I have a media server with replication that backs up all the small projects. I have eight 4TB drives in it that box gives me about 16TB of replicated storage.

Anyway, SSDs in my opinion have put RAID out of business for projects that don't need the space. They are blisteringly fast which tends to be more noticeable with complicated timelines.

If you end up going with a RAID I strongly recommend going with hardware RAID and not Fake-RAID (software). Most of your USB based enclosures are Fake-RAID. If the box isn't expensive then its Fake-RAID.

Ron Evans · May 3rd, 2016, 06:07 AM

Well if you really want something to trust for the long term backup then use LTO tape. As a medium it is really low cost once you have the drive. Otherwise you end up copying to at least two drives for any security at all and they need to be run every so often to make sure they still work. Not a good idea if you have a lot of drives.

The Vantec HX4R is a hardware RAID in the box set by switches and can be moved from PC to PC. I find it more convenient than managing a lot of hard drives and spreading project files between them. At least with the RAID 5 I can create folders for the projects and not worry if I am going to exceed the space left on a drive. I used the 4 x 3T drives I had in my NAS when I updated to 4 x 4T drives. I used to use the docks, and still have Vantec docks too but it is a pain to keep a record of what is on each drive. Much easier on a big RAID5. I do agree though that a big SSD is great for editing speed. Though for most files like AVCHD, XAVC-S or even 4K LongGOP mov ( from DVX200, FDR-AX1 etc ) the bottleneck is CPU and/or GPU not hard drive speed.

Ron Evans

Gary Huff · May 3rd, 2016, 09:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ron Evans

Well if you really want something to trust for the long term backup then use LTO tape.

Absolutely, RAIDs are nice for temporary storage, but long term, you really want LTO. And ideally, duplicated tapes. And even more ideally, one of those tapes is at a different physical location.

Steven Davis · May 12th, 2016, 05:11 PM

Well after another great discussion, I took it all in and ended up getting twin G-DRIVE with Thunderbolt | G-Technology I thought my ASUS board would take an ASUS Thunderbolt card, but it doesn't look promising. Either way, I went with dual drives since they can be more flexible down the road. That and I had no promise, that I could adapt this pc for Thunderbolt, it looks it won't.

Thanks again for the discussion, amazing stuff.

April 21st, 2016, 10:14 AM	#1
Steven Davis Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Richmond, VA Posts: 3,065	Which Raid Looking for a Raid solution I'm contemplating between, http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1224324-REG/wd_wdbvbz0120jch_nesn_12tb_my_cloud_ex2.html and http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/927498-REG/drobo_10tb_5_x_2tb.html I would have to sell an arm and a leg for the Drobo, but both of them have Ethernet connections. The last Mybook I had died, albeit it was a civilian version. Just not sure. __________________ What happens if I push the 'Red' button?

April 25th, 2016, 09:18 PM	#2
Paul Mailath Trustee Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Central Coast - NSW, Australia Posts: 1,606	Re: Which Raid Your WD can only do RAID 0 (which isn't really a raid at all) or Raid 1 - mirror The Drobo with 5 bays should do Raid 5 but only mentions BeyondRAID which makes me nervous - I'm not sure what it is and exactly how it works and you can't get 10Tb of raid storage out of 5 2Tb drives I've used Synology storage for years and apart from having to replace a couple of drives they run 24/7 year in year out how about this: http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1215992-REG/synology_diskstation_ds416j.htmlget some 2Tb or 4Tb drives and you're good to go https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RAID __________________ Cheers - Paul M. www.perbenyik.com

April 25th, 2016, 10:31 PM	#3
Mike Watson Trustee Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: San Diego, CA Posts: 1,082	Re: Which Raid 1) NAS is "network attached storage" which means you'll be running at network speed instead of disk speed, which is (probably) too slow for reliable video editing. You are not plugging a disk into your computer; this disk is another miniature computer on your network. It is possible to achieve gigabit speeds out of it, but your whole network has to be gigabit, and you need a masters degree to get the whole network going, plus a nerd to live in your basement to troubleshoot it from time to time. I have had gigabit NAS before, but I could never get it to be predictable and reliable for video editing. 2) My understanding (which, if it wasn't clear from the previous point, is fleeting at best) is that RAID5 is a pretty universal thing, and if you need to do data recovery, it's possible. My understanding of Drobo is that they don't use RAID5, they use a proprietary thing that is like RAID5, and if you need to do recovery (which, if you're going to be using a RAID very long, I would consider to be a sure thing someday), it is difficult and expensive. I have shied away for this reason. Some years ago, everybody I know used the CalDigit RAIDs from OWC. OWC provided me substandard support at some point and I stopped using them, and there are not a lot of options out there at this point. When you can buy a single 8TB drive, the need for RAID is less and less. If I didn't have a bias against OWC, I would suggest you use them. Since I do, I don't have any recommendation really. And I'm in the market right now as well.

April 25th, 2016, 11:56 PM	#4
Andy Wilkinson Inner Circle Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Cambridge UK Posts: 2,853	Re: Which Raid I use numerous G-Tech G-RAID units including a 12TB 4-Bay G-Speed Studio R Thunderbolt 2 unit linked to my new Mac Pro...wonder when it just becomes another MP...anyway, the "trashcan" one! It is running in RAID-5 configuration (the default it is supplied with) and so gives 9TB of usable space, but can do RAID-0 if you really want the speed (and risk). They do various sizes and models in the range. Current work in progress projects live on this unit with backups in various other locations including on numerous WD Scorpio Black hard drives in a safe - just connected to my systems as needed via various Icy Docks. Pretty pleased with the G-Speed...Not cheap but, touch wood, I have yet to have any of my G-Tech units fail on me (I have 8 others, various models). It has a glossy black finish which is a dust magnet and it is not exactly silent either...the fan inside is certainly pretty audible ...but then no G-RAID system I've ever used in the last 8 years has been as quiet as I would like. __________________ Andy K Wilkinson - https://www.shootingimage.co.uk Cambridge (UK) Corporate Video Production Last edited by Andy Wilkinson; April 26th, 2016 at 10:40 AM. Reason: typo!

April 26th, 2016, 10:17 AM	#5
Phil Goetz Austinite Join Date: Sep 2013 Location: Austin Posts: 550	Re: Which Raid Hardware RAID versus software RAID? You need 3 drives minimum to do RAID5. If one drive goes down you are still good. There is a argument to be made for RAID 1+0 over RAID 5 because with the former there is less going on behind the scenes in terms of cache and data read out and potential data loss. Too bad NAS isn't more reliable. I'm in a direct attach pile-o-drives scenario and always make sure to have files saved in at least two places.

May 2nd, 2016, 05:10 PM	#6
Steven Davis Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Richmond, VA Posts: 3,065	Re: Which Raid Well, I'm trying to find a Raid 5 system for my PC. I built my Asus X99 system last year, and remembered that the board specs offered Thunderbolt support. So after about an hour of support with Asus, there is a card https://www.asus.com/us/Motherboard-...nderboltEX_II/ that will work with my board. My hesitation is that if I buy the card, the drive array and the card goes out, then i'm a little stuck. I did call OWC and asked them about their array, and according to them, their raid software doesn't work with PC. So they're out. The Promise Pegasus only offers one model that has a USB and Thunderbolt, but it's their Products - Pegasus2 Series \| Thunderbolt2 Storage \| PROMISE Technology which is only Raid 0/1 I have one G-Drive thunderbolt drive, it's solid, so if I go any route for a Raid 5, it will probably be from them. I know I sound like someone listening to 8-track tapes, but I just built this PC in June/15, so I think I only need a couple of years before I switch over to FCPX for good. It's like I'm between relationships. I do need to solve this throughput issue, my editing is getting hung up on my internal sata drives. __________________ What happens if I push the 'Red' button?

May 2nd, 2016, 05:56 PM	#7
Mike Watson Trustee Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: San Diego, CA Posts: 1,082	Re: Which Raid Editing is getting hung up on your internal SATA drives... because of storage space, or speed? I have edited uncompressed 10 bit off internal SATA drives. What codec are you editing in?

May 2nd, 2016, 05:58 PM	#8
Chris Medico Inner Circle Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Efland NC, USA Posts: 2,322	Re: Which Raid Lets back up a notch. What is the purpose of this storage system? __________________ http://www.LandYachtMedia.com

May 2nd, 2016, 08:09 PM	#10
Ron Evans Inner Circle Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada Posts: 4,220	Re: Which Raid I have a Vantec HX4R USB3 external RAID that I run in RAID 5 for source backup. Vantec ? Product. Not expensive and works fine. I use for backups while editing on a straight 4T drive and small 2T RAID 0 internal. Ron Evans

May 2nd, 2016, 08:19 PM	#11
Chris Medico Inner Circle Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Efland NC, USA Posts: 2,322	Re: Which Raid My thoughts, I recommend a different strategy. RAID is not a backup replacement. Dollar for dollar a few drives with the footage backed up across them is a FAR better strategy. RAID excels at making a drive space large and fast enough for your online project. If you don't need a huge storage pool a SSD will exceed the performance of a RAID5 setup with fewer than 7 drives. It will stomp all over ANY NAS regardless of the number of drives. Ethernet will limit your data rate to under 100MB/S if its fabulous. Real world example - I have a RAID5 setup here because the feature film I've been working on is about 10TB of 4k footage. To get real time playback of multiple streams of 4k it requires a RAID. I have 3 additional copies of the film in addition to the RAID copy. The RAID5 setup here is good for about 400-600MB/S of throughput. It is a hardware RAID with a dedicated controller. It is built from five 4TB drives. It is 16TB after the RAID overhead is taken out. How much footage are you dealing with at once in a project? For smaller projects I buy 500GB-1TB SSDs and drop them in a USB SATA adapter. Makes for a very clean setup. They are dirt cheap (relatively speaking). I have a media server with replication that backs up all the small projects. I have eight 4TB drives in it that box gives me about 16TB of replicated storage. Anyway, SSDs in my opinion have put RAID out of business for projects that don't need the space. They are blisteringly fast which tends to be more noticeable with complicated timelines. If you end up going with a RAID I strongly recommend going with hardware RAID and not Fake-RAID (software). Most of your USB based enclosures are Fake-RAID. If the box isn't expensive then its Fake-RAID. __________________ http://www.LandYachtMedia.com Last edited by Chris Medico; May 2nd, 2016 at 11:28 PM.

May 3rd, 2016, 06:07 AM	#12
Ron Evans Inner Circle Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada Posts: 4,220	Re: Which Raid Well if you really want something to trust for the long term backup then use LTO tape. As a medium it is really low cost once you have the drive. Otherwise you end up copying to at least two drives for any security at all and they need to be run every so often to make sure they still work. Not a good idea if you have a lot of drives. The Vantec HX4R is a hardware RAID in the box set by switches and can be moved from PC to PC. I find it more convenient than managing a lot of hard drives and spreading project files between them. At least with the RAID 5 I can create folders for the projects and not worry if I am going to exceed the space left on a drive. I used the 4 x 3T drives I had in my NAS when I updated to 4 x 4T drives. I used to use the docks, and still have Vantec docks too but it is a pain to keep a record of what is on each drive. Much easier on a big RAID5. I do agree though that a big SSD is great for editing speed. Though for most files like AVCHD, XAVC-S or even 4K LongGOP mov ( from DVX200, FDR-AX1 etc ) the bottleneck is CPU and/or GPU not hard drive speed. Ron Evans

May 12th, 2016, 05:11 PM	#14
Steven Davis Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Richmond, VA Posts: 3,065	Re: Which Raid Well after another great discussion, I took it all in and ended up getting twin G-DRIVE with Thunderbolt \| G-Technology I thought my ASUS board would take an ASUS Thunderbolt card, but it doesn't look promising. Either way, I went with dual drives since they can be more flexible down the road. That and I had no promise, that I could adapt this pc for Thunderbolt, it looks it won't. Thanks again for the discussion, amazing stuff. __________________ What happens if I push the 'Red' button?