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Old December 30th, 2002, 07:30 AM   #31
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Okay--first of all, there are many "professionals" out there who dont use Avid---there are so many options on the market today that Avid, unless they become more nimble, will no longer dominate the so called professional market. The day of hardware driven editing is ending as processors become more powerful and software solutions predominate.

Beyond that, this debate misses an essential point. Editing is a craft/art that has little to do with what platform you use or technical expertise. It has to do with the way mold images together to acheive one's goal. This can be done on any decent NLE-- I would hire the guy with native ability who edits on ULEAD before an Avid technician any day. You can always learn the Avid. I am not so sure you can be taught how to be a good editor. You either have it or you dont.
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Old December 30th, 2002, 07:59 AM   #32
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I can teach people to be good editors. I've done it for years. They are competent, efficient, well organized, fast and good with clients. They make their employers lots of money. I can't teach people to be a great editor. That takes more, it comes from within. As you point out, editing is a craft and an art. I can teach the craft, the art takes more.

When it comes to hiring, business today doesn't have the luxury to retrain or train employees. If I'm an employer and I've got jobs piling up and I'm down an editor I'll hire the Avid technician. he can sit in the chair and go right to work and knock out the work. It may not be great art, but the jobs get done. I didn't have to open the book and train someone at my expense.

Let's look at great editors. What's your 10 favorite films of the last 10 years? Chances are they were all cut on an Avid. Your favorite TV shows? Cut on an Avid. The short history of NLE is stacked in Avids favor. They are the top dog by the fact of being there first. They will be around for a long while.

Vegas Video on the other hand is a company that is struggling for its very survival http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthrea...&threadid=5569 There stock is trading for pennies. If I'm a small business person is this the type of company I should invest by hard earned capital in? Where will they be three years from now when I'm ready to upgrade?

Jeff
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Old December 30th, 2002, 09:38 AM   #33
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Saying that you can teach anyone to be a good editor is like saying I can teach anyone to be a good painter--you can teach them the technical skills but you can't teach them the art.

As far as the the top ten films edited on Avid--I could care less---most of them are terrible and many of them are edited poorly.

As far as Sonic Foundry's future goes---in the next 60 days they should have an announcement---in fact, version 4.0 is in beta and from what I hear, it addresses practically all of the weaknesses (as few as there are) Vegas will be around for a long time--it's that good.


You keep mixing up the business of film/video with the art of it.
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Old December 30th, 2002, 10:02 AM   #34
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I said I could teach people to be good editors, not great. A good editor, to me, is someone who knows the craft. I believe that can be taught. Great editing is an art and is difficult if not impossible to teach.

I didn't say top 10 films, I said your 10 favorite films.

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Old December 30th, 2002, 10:17 AM   #35
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This thread has been very good - but we are missing the most important information to help with the buying decision -

What kind of video work do you do and what features do you feel are important?

This is critical to deciding between these excellent solutions. All work great and have their own important features that set them apart.

For making photo montages and hi light sequences set perfectly to audio Vegas Video is in a league by itself. The perfect toolset, features and performance for the job. It's also great for "Gen X" style videos with mutliple layers, composits and flying stuff all set to music and equally as complex audio. Having an understanding of computer based audio programs will make using Vegas a breeze.

The DV Strom2 has become the weapon of choice for even videogrpahers. These guys shoot with 2 or more cameras and the multiple levels of video are very important.

RTX.100 has gained serious ground in the Wedding/event marketplace. While it doesn't have the pure 5 layer power of the DV Storm, you do get excellent controls and tools for the real-time 3D & effects. Matrox aquisition and export tools are excellent. Excellent choice for hobbiest enthusiasts as well.

Avid Xpress DV is the best pure video editing solution on the market - especially for long format work. Media & project management are critical components of serious, long format video productions and Avid has the best in the industry. Much of the Avid learning curve is 'un-learning' Premiere. Once you stop trying to edit like you did on Premiere and start editing the "Acid" way, it all comes together very quickly.


I hope I've shed some more light on the choices for you. Please fell free to give us a call 800 323-2325 We can go over all these details in far greater detail for you.

Gary
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Old December 30th, 2002, 10:29 AM   #36
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Professionalism

Over the years I've searched dictionaries of different periods and languages for a satisfactory definition of professional, but I never came across one that satiated me until reading the court transcripts of a famous patent suit, in which the prosecutor called into question a witness's standard of professional care. In my view, being a "professional" comes down to a mindset of personal responsibility: a professional engineer is beholden to standards of safety and security for devices of his/her design; a professional physician is responsible for faultless care of his/her patients (first do no harm and all that). But what is a professional artist? A professional filmmaker, film director, film editor? I can think of no standards of professionalism by which an artist can be held accountable. (I don't buy into the whole guild member/union card holder bit. George Lucas tore up his guild card after the release of The Empire Strikes Back, did he suddenly stop being a professional filmmaker?)

When a bridge collapses because of an engineer's negligence and kills people, the engineer should be accountable. When a doctor leaves a surgical instrument inside of a patient after an operation, the doctor should be accountable. The engineer is not an amateur nor an apprentice; surgery is not the doctor's hobby. They are operating in a professional mode. There are objective criteria by which their performances may be judged.

An artist-for-hire (i.e., a professional artist) is accountable to no one save patron/client, and while the artist-for-hire should strive to meet the criteria and standards set by patron/client, such standards are may be entirely subjective and thus cannot fall under the domain of "standards of professionalism." Let's take an example--someone mentioned a child being hired for an editing job. The patron/client may deem the final result to be "not good enough," but this is a subjective and unsubstantiatable objection. (A more objective criteria may be established by the client: this clip should be spliced to this clip at this point, and this source should be composited to this source and spliced to this clip and this point, and so on; but in this case, the client is the editor and the artist is a proxy.)

I have come to believe and reaffirm my belief that regardless of the sums of money involved, filmmaking, like any artistic endeavor, is an avocation, not a profession, and any claim of "professionalism" is easily dismissed under subjective grounds.

Turning our attention to Avid. Avid became an "industry standard" by taking a foothold early in the market and sustaining aggressive sales and service campaigns over several decades. But is it a "professional" editing environment? In the final equation, the only thing that matters is that film (and by film I mean a series of images, digital video etc. included) is cut together: cleanly, quickly, efficiently. Many production facilities use Avid software and hardware and rely on Avid service. Thus far I'm not convinced that Avid's hegemony in the professional media production world is anything more than branding and marketing, in part because I've never seen a piece of film edited on an Avid that couldn't have been edited together just as swiftly in other lower-cost editing environments.

So is Avid a "more professional" editing environment than Premiere, Vegas Video, etc.? To determine this, we ask: should editors working on an Avid be held to a higher standard of accountability than editors using Premiere, Vegas Video, etc.?
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Old December 30th, 2002, 10:41 AM   #37
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Jeff I pretty much agree with your assessment of job opportunities.

I live in the Philadelphia area. Opening up the largest Philly paper here and there is not one help wanted add for an editor.

On the other hand there is a healthy demand for general video work.

I'm sure your advice is well intended. I'm really not sure how many people who go to film school wind up in a high paying video editing job because of there Avid skill set. No pun intended.

Are editors who don't have animation experience that high on the food chain?

I'm really asking questions here not challenging anyone.

It is important to understand what the individual has in mind as per career. This is a very diverse industry. I know guys who do nothing but Weddings who make a very good living. I know other folks who are strictly involved in Local TV spots. Product promotion. Duplication and conversion,legal video services, on and on. I would call them all professionals.


...>"Overpriced compared to what? A businessman and entrepreneur can make such a statement without qualification?"


The competition with generally the same feature set. For one example
Can you say Canopus storm2 with premiere.

>Your point on Premiere having a "long history of stability issues" is non sequitor.

Read the post, I was sharing my editing experience. I use Premier, Canopus, Vegas, AE and others.

>"It has a long history. Vegas has a short history, including Vegas 2. I forget what it was called before that... care to remind me?"


If you want to call it a fault that within a very short period of time Sonic Foundry created a very feature rich and capable editor that has had a clean stability record, fine. That is your prerogative.
I would call that a triumph.

I have owned many incarnations of premiere.
Really buggy was the norm in every version up to 6.
Even now their are issues with long form projects using multiple streams and effects.
6 and 6.5 are definitely a step in the right direction.
But come on: "Non sequitor"? Anyone who needs to get projects out and sleep at night would disagree.
Stability is a major factor in editing gear.

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Old December 30th, 2002, 10:53 AM   #38
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Re: Professionalism

<<<-- Originally posted by Robert Knecht Schmidt : I've never seen a piece of film edited on an Avid that couldn't have been edited together just as swiftly in other lower-cost editing environments. -->>>

Robert,

The scenes can be cut on almost any NLE. But you can't use the other NLE's to go back to the negative and actually cut it. Avid and FCP (to a lesser degree) have a hold on the film community because the others can't handle film.

Jeff
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Old December 30th, 2002, 11:38 AM   #39
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Rick,

Your correct, most higher paying jobs (editing) are not advertised in local papers. Trade publications, internet and word of mouth are the norm for hiring Avid editors.

When I moved from Cincinnati to Palm Harbor in '01 I walked into several production companies with my reel and resume (noting that I'm Avid certified and FCP) and had freelance work within a couple of weeks. I don't think I would have had the work if my background was all Vegas Video, Premiere, Canopus etc.

I would agree that the mostly heavily advertised local jobs are for wedding, event and industrial video work. These are the Mom and Pop companies that are the bulk of VV3, Premiere and Canopus users, just as Gary points out. That's their intended market and they do a great job at it.

Graduates of Film Schools probably have higher aspirations and professional goals, than editing wedding videos and other events. I think graduates of trade schools fill the bulk of those positions and those at local cable organizations. But in many cases peoples careers are restricted by not relocating. The majority of films are edited in LA, music videos, independent films etc. all have their geographic centers. If you're not willing to relocate, Hollywood is unlikely to beat a path to your door.

Jeff
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Old December 30th, 2002, 02:53 PM   #40
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Robert's analysis of Avid is right on.
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Old December 30th, 2002, 03:31 PM   #41
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Like Robert, I too have sifted through various definitions of "professional" and have adopted my own. It suits my purposes, and you are free to reject it, as we are all free to reject Robert's, even as he has rejected others.

On the one hand, you have the definition created by the sports world, whereby one may lose their "amateur" status, simply by being payed once, or even accepting other types of compensation. Once you take money, you become "professional", even if the amount is small.

This seems a bit severe, and the average person on the street has a "reasonable" expectation that a "professional" is one who makes their living in a particular field. (One assumes they have reached this level by a combination of experience and training )
Like Robert, I too turn to the law for the definition of "reasonable." Unlike Robert, I wouldn't limit the class of professionalism to those who deal only in life or death matters, (Medical Professionals, Legal Professionals, Engineers who build life dependent systems, or military personell. Using that criteria, the only professionals in the film industry would be stunt co-ordinators)

Having said that, there is a "grey world" of professionals, or "semi-pros" in the arts as well as in sports. In the DV world, the term "Prosumer" has been applied to equipment that falls somewhere between "professional" gear and "Hobbyists/consumer". Seems like many of the people who visit these boards are "prosumers". People who pursue their craft/art as a business - sometimes on the side, hoping to build it to the status of full time, full pay. That's a good way to start.

My definition of "Professional" then, is one who makes their living by performing their craft/art. Semi-professional would fit the bill for those who pursue it part-time. It's a definition that sometimes falls short, but it's a "reasonable" one for me.

Having said that, I just visited Mandy.com to search for "Fully paid" jobs in the US for editors. The results were pretty much what one would expect.

Nine full time jobs listed for Avid editors

Five full time jobs listed for FCP editors.

Three jobs listed for Editors with skills in Both platforms.

Two jobs listed for "others" Discreet, Smoke etc.

None listed for VV.

Just an observation on marketable skills at the present time. Perhaps, in five-ten years, VV will have reached a similar level of integration in the professional world.

All the best
Bill
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Old December 30th, 2002, 05:42 PM   #42
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At one time, there was a pretty clear distinction between professionals and laymen. Trade unions still follow a strict heirarchy of apprentice, journeymen, and master. In the US, doctors, engineers, lawyers, and accountants are required to demonstrate prerequisite knowledge and, periodically, ongoing education. Electricians, plumbers, elevator repair, telephony, and many other trades that don't readily to mind are also internally or legally regulated. In short, anywhere that public safety and welfare is concerned, there is a sharp distinction between the hobbyist and professional.

The entertainment industry sits here full of itself, and draws distinctions based not on qualifications, but on membership or length of service. Public safety is not at stake, but the size of one's paycheck is. For better or worse, the paycheck is the distinction In the end, lacking another, that is the definition of professional.

It could be worse. You might find yourself in a profession that's at odds with your hobby. Getting paid for your hobby efforts is an enviable position.
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Old December 30th, 2002, 06:11 PM   #43
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Jeff, sorry I misconstrued your comment on your 10 favorite movies being edited on Avid. Most of my favorites were cut with a splicer and tape before Avid was even formed. I could give you the list but you get the idea. Again, this debate really started with someone saying that Vegas was not stable---it has evolved into an interesting discussion of peripheral subjects.

By the way, have any of you guys ever edited on a Movieola or Steinbeck ????
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Old December 30th, 2002, 06:41 PM   #44
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It's sort of peripheral, but sort of at the heart of the mater. Americans want to be able to look at a list, compare numbers (features) and pick a winner. I like to think of it more as the Zen of editing. I think people should start out with the right set of tools and then evolve. As someone here pointed out, the hardest thing about Avid is unlearning the way you used to edit.

I went from linear editing in the '80's and early '90's to Avid editing and now FCP. Learning the Avid was fairly easy. It seemed natural and still does.

My comments about careers deal with peoples hopes and dreams. I know quite a few young people who dream of working in TV. Well, the majority of TV stations that are non-linear are Avid based. Why not have a jump on the competition and know the ins and outs of the tools you'll be using? Nothing I've said is meant to be a slam on VV3 or any other product. As Robert pointed out they are all capable of doing what the other does, just a little differently.

Except actual film. Avid is the only one that handles the frame numbers on film so that you can conform a list to go to the neg cutter with and edit your film. That's why the majority of the worlds great editors cut on an Avid. Avid is the only one that you can cut film on, with a few exceptions.

Jeff
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Old December 30th, 2002, 10:17 PM   #45
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"Can anyone offer any advice on a good NLE system? I will use it mostly for home video but use a Sony DCR VX2000 and want to maintain the best image quality I can for eventual DVD authoring.

I have read a lot about Matrox RTX100 and Canopus DVStorm and was considering one of these devices but it seems that many people are very happy with Vegas Video 3, which not only is much cheaper, but also probably easier to install (the other devices being hardware based). The other issue is I may have to upgrade my computer (P4, 1.8 GHz, 1G RAM) to use the Matrox or Canopus effectively. I want to be able to have a couple layers of video and audio with 3-4 texts if I want, as well as color correction and some cool 3D transitions. Since I am a hobbyist I don't need lightening fast rendering, but would at least like some real time previewing of effects and not painfully long rendering when it is needed.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Jeff, I wish you would re-read the original post.
This gentleman is looking for a low cost NLE.
Avid purchase here makes no sense.

You don't need a chainsaw to cut butter.

Vegas would fit his needs and more.

I think your dream would be his nightmare.

Should he go to film school to have fun with his VX2000.

How does cutting film relate in anyway to his post?

Buy Vegas, a $20 USdollar OHCI card and a AVID T-shirt.

Have fun. Life is short.

If you have the money get a Storm or Raptor.
Stormedit is really easy. Once installed You could be having fun in an hour.
If you buy Canopus I will help you install it if you run into trouble.
Let me know what system you have now.
My two cents.
Best wishes,
Rick
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