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Old January 7th, 2008, 01:24 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Hull View Post
some camcorders like mine [for outdoor use]has best colour with auto white balance.fx-7
Are you talking about the auto white balance or the "totally automatic" auto white balance? Of course I'm using auto white balance a lot (that is: use a white card and hit the "auto white" button). I was referring to the automatic auto white balance mode, where the camera adjusts colors every time you pan from shadow to sunlight. I don't like that because it gives you no control over when the white balance changes, it doesn't make colors look better than if you white balance manually (using the "auto white" button). Totally manual white balance, like with studio cameras, isn't possible afaik with most (all?) shoulder mount or handheld camcorders.
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Old January 8th, 2008, 12:45 PM   #32
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Just my two cents (forgetting semantics). People who shoot in auto mode in situations like you described (where there seems to be time and control to make things right) should not be hired if you want good footage. Actually, considering that we always want good footage, these people shouldn't be hired at all. I mean, what are they doing? Sure, they're framing things up but after that, the camera is doing all of the work. That's lazy.

I understand the value of certain auto modes in certain situations. While I've never employed auto iris or WB, I'm thankful for auto focus in situations where I don't have an assistant or time to get marks and pull focus myself. That said, if I'm in an interview setting or shooting something controlled, I'm on full manual and I get great images. It's just impossible to get consistent quality with auto because the camera doesn't know what you want. It knows what's too bright, or the color temp of the most dominant light source, but that's it. If you don't care that the windows are blown out because you want the interior of a room to be the focus, the camera cannot possibly know that.

Somehow there are a lot of people out there who don't work or act like professionals but make money doing it. I don't get it and I don't like it, but that's life. I do my best not to work with these people. If you have the power or influence to do the same, fix it. If for some reason the people who hire these people (and I assume hire you as well), don't bite, why don't you ask for more money to compensate for all of the extra time you have to spend fixing all of the unprofessional footage?

Anyway, good luck with this.

~~Dave
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Old January 8th, 2008, 02:19 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heiko Saele View Post
Are you talking about the auto white balance or the "totally automatic" auto white balance? Of course I'm using auto white balance a lot (that is: use a white card and hit the "auto white" button). I was referring to the automatic auto white balance mode, where the camera adjusts colors every time you pan from shadow to sunlight. I don't like that because it gives you no control over when the white balance changes, it doesn't make colors look better than if you white balance manually (using the "auto white" button). Totally manual white balance, like with studio cameras, isn't possible afaik with most (all?) shoulder mount or handheld camcorders.
How do you continually manually alter the white balance whilst panning if not in auto white balance
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Old January 8th, 2008, 02:47 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by Brian Drysdale View Post
The basic difference is Pro is short for professional, which means you're getting paid.

However, you can have a professional approach in the sense you plan and work in a well structured, knowledgeable manner, but you're not a pro in the sense you're not earning your living from it.

An amateur is someone who does something for the love of it - as a hobby -they can be talented filmmakers, but they don't wish to earn their living from it. But it's often used as an insult towards disorganised professionals lacking in skills. Unfortunately the word tends to have more of the latter meaning these days and so people call themselves Indies, which in industry terms is a film make outside the studio system.

You can also have professionals who have the amateur's love for what they're doing. That is, they're in the fortunate position of earning their living from their hobby.
Word. I agree.

Maybe instead of using the word 'professional', we should use the word 'expert' in this context.

There are plenty of professionals who are not experts, and there are certainly experts who don't operate for profit. So I can see a professional using "full auto", but if that mode makes the footage unusable or rough, then I wouldn't call them an expert.

Although, an expert will tell you that there is a time for full auto as well; maybe real estate isn't it though.
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Old January 10th, 2008, 03:09 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by Alan Craig View Post
How do you continually manually alter the white balance whilst panning if not in auto white balance
I don't, that's the point :)
If you use totally automatic white balance and shoot an object in the shade, the color is neutral white, then let's say you zoom out slowly until you reach full wide angle. While you zoom out, more and more parts of your frame are lit by nice, warm, yellow sunlight. Then suddenly, while still zooming, your camera says "hey, that's not white anymore" and auto white balances. The nice yellow sunlight becomes neutral white and the object in the shade turns blue. You won't ever see something like that on tv because every editor will reject it, it looks cheap and amateurish.
What you do in such a situation is either use outdoor preset, or find a medium white balance manually. Shade is allowed to look a little blueish, and warm sunlight must be yellow to look like warm sunlight - I won't let my camera decide what colors have to be white
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Old January 10th, 2008, 09:43 PM   #36
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My first thought is what does full auto have to do with being professional?
You could shoot in auto..manual..10 minutes of each, back and forth and still be pro or rookie.

At the end of the day you are paying for clips that your film crew couldn't film properly..so not only are they not pros, their poor camerman period.
How big are the files he sent you..what format?


http://www.metacafe.com/watch/939635...etboat_racing/

2 z1-u's and an xl1s full auto or full man???
rookie, amateur, semi-pro..pro ??

lol
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Old January 11th, 2008, 11:13 AM   #37
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Guys I am a professional videographer. I have shot over a hundred weddings. Twenty two local commercials and a couple national spots. I assisted in one feature movie and have produced a documentary that has sold over ten thousand copies at Wallgreens Vallareo and HEB stores. And yes I have shot real estate video one thing that you said that bugged me was day rate. It has been my experience that someone that ask for day rate usually wants more than they are willing to pay for. If you want a Pro you will have to pay for one.

I shot a real estate video of multi million dollar facility. The construction company owner wanted to lead a tour thru the facility. He asked for a day rate and he wanted a pro. We started out side worked our way around the facility then moved to the inside. At this point I had already walked a mile carrying my equipment setting up and shooting and moving and shooting twelve different setups. My sound person helping shuttle equipment from spot to spot. On the inside we toured over one hundred rooms halls, lobbies, foyers, entrances, at a joggers pace. In order to keep up I had leave my tripod behind mount a light and mic to the cam and go hand held. And yes it was necessary to use auto mode. That was the last time I worked for a day rate. I knew I was being taken advantage of as soon as we moved inside, I knew he was expecting top notch footage, but was not giving the time it takes to get it. Under the circumstances the footage looked pretty good. Holding the cam on monopod with light and mic like a steady cam wearing a battery belt stopping only to change tapes for two and a half hours. My back was killing me the only reason I did it was because I had said I would. And I live up to my word. In my mind I keep telling my self that this is a lesson I will not have to relearn. No more day rate. No more compromise. If you want pro we take time to shoot like a pro. If you want run and gun you get auto mode.
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Old January 11th, 2008, 11:32 AM   #38
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Ron, day rates (or even half days) are normal in the tv business, a little running and carrying included. In Germany tv stations expect a team with a shoulder mount camcorder - and therefore no auto-mode shoots. I recently shot for Pro7 (national station) and we offered either a HVX200, or Betacam SP - they said they wanted the Beta, or they won't book us at all. The quality of the Beta might be a little grainier than the HVX (in SD on MiniDV), but I was glad I didn't have to use the HVX. The shoot was only inside an apartment, but it was very documentary and with a few people around. I shot 2 hours of footage without once using a tripod, mic receiver and light attached to the camera, battery belt around my waist. No problem with the shoulder mount, and needless to say I shot in full manual.
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Old January 11th, 2008, 03:40 PM   #39
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I am fully aware of day and half day rates in the (TV business) I just donít have them. I get paid for all the time I work. If you donít then I am sorry for you.
In the shoot I was talking about I was hand held for almost three hours and that was after the outside shots. If that is what you call a little run and gun then we donít use the same definitions.
Congratulations on shooting for a (national station.) I am not sure why you are comparing your little interview with a shoulder mount beta cam to mine or insinuating that I am some how deficient. But I assure you I am up to the task. This is a little of subject of auto mode and can it be used in a professional setting.
I am not saying that you should shoot in auto mode all the time. You should be in manual most of the time. I am saying that there are times when auto mode is useful. If you have never been in a situation like that then maybe you have not really been challenged yet. After you have been doing this for a wile you may find yourself in a situation where auto mode looks like a good option.
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Old January 12th, 2008, 06:11 AM   #40
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Any freelance professional camera people I know all charge daily rates (although some do charge 1/2 days), with the overtime start depending if they're working on 8 hr, 10hr or 12 hr days. The daily rates varying depending on the day booked and the type of production. This applies on everything from docs, commercials to feature films. On longer running productions you do get weekly rates.

Having recently shot Steadicam with Digibeta on a corporate for a major construction company you really need to work things out. You should tell them that you need to recce before you actually shoot anything on the day. Usually this involves leaving the camera gear behind in the camera car/truck, walking around and discussing what's needed and you making suggestions. This may involve telling them the best approach and for them to make priorities, otherwise they will have you filming everything.

Doing this enables you to ask for a trolley if there are any large distances involved. Also, often the client will offer help to carry gear once they see the logistics.

Shooting hand held can apply on all types of production and they mightn't be so the called "run and gun" productions. Three hours is pretty common on many productions.
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Old January 12th, 2008, 07:20 AM   #41
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I also charge a day rate.

My day rate is my hourly rate multiplied by how many hours are in that day. I donít have any trouble getting it and I have plenty of work.

I still donít see what this has to do with the original topic.
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Old January 12th, 2008, 11:21 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by Ron Little View Post
I also charge a day rate.

My day rate is my hourly rate multiplied by how many hours are in that day. I donít have any trouble getting it and I have plenty of work.

I still donít see what this has to do with the original topic.
I think it was you saying:

"And yes I have shot real estate video one thing that you said that bugged me was day rate. It has been my experience that someone that ask for day rate usually wants more than they are willing to pay for. If you want a Pro you will have to pay for one."

It's just that most professionals don't work by the hour only by the day. The reason being that you usually can't work for anyone else. Sometimes this may only involve actually working for a couple of hours, but they still charge for the full day.

Most producers know how most they can shoot within their scheduled day and budget accordingly, so the industry standard is the daily rate. You do get hourly rates in post production, especially when working with high kit, however, unless you're careful, you can go seriously over budget.

The producers who you do need to be wary of are those asking for an all in deal.

Regarding the original thread, it seems to be agreed that professionals do use the auto mode when it's appropriate for the shot(s) in hand.
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Old January 12th, 2008, 06:21 PM   #43
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Brian, that is a very good point the all in one deal is what I avoid. I work hard and I want to get paid for my work.

Now I have donated my services on many occasions when the cause is good or the project is fun and I can learn something.
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