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Old May 5th, 2008, 12:32 PM   #1
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Best under 10k cam for features?

Curious what people's opinions are. Assuming I have everything else covered. Which I do with the exception of a 35mm adaptor and a WA. ( a SD722, wireless, senn's, a schoeps cmc641, lights, tripods, merlin, etc.) and you had up to 10k to spend on a cam that would only be used for making features and shorts shot in 24p or 24f in outdoors and in, what would you get?
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Old May 6th, 2008, 01:23 AM   #2
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I would rent - buying a camera to make short or features is a bad investment in my opinion.

Videographers - sure, Shorts and Features, $10K in rentals and bottles of wine for favours and the like will get you a hell of a lot more bang for your buck.
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Old May 6th, 2008, 01:49 AM   #3
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If you plan on using a 35mm adapter, which sounds like you are, I would probably save $7,000 and get a Canon XH-A1. The A1 looks like the G1 which looks like the H1, which looks great. You don't get timecode or HD-SDI out. But your recorder doesn't have timecode, unless its a 722T. And honestly, how many people are equipped to handle HD-SDI out?

Once you've exhausted that setup, Red's Scarlet will be ready.

If you're not using an apapter and are shooting now, I'd go with Sony's EX1. I just don't see sinking all that money into a camera and SxS cards when I'll want to use Scarlet in nine months.

JMHO. Good luck :).
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Old May 6th, 2008, 03:54 AM   #4
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These guys went out and tested every 3ccd chip cam on the market and then chose the HD100, they got a worldwide cinema release with sony pictures.

http://www.uemedia.net/CPC/cinematog...le_16628.shtml

They even used the stock lens.

I own an HD100 and love the quality of it, if your interested in the JVC go for the HD200....it has the uprated battery pack , a 2:35:1 safty zone option on the viewfinder and you can overcrank it to get true slow motion. Plus when you cover it in goodies like mattebox, rails, follow focus etc it really looks impresive.

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Old May 6th, 2008, 05:39 AM   #5
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I think if you are looking the most at 'bang for the buck'-ration, you should go with the Canon XH A1 or the Sony EX1. Both have a different price class, and a different workflow, but they both are under 10k, and they both give you many features for less money.
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Old May 6th, 2008, 07:09 PM   #6
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The HD100? Seriously?! It's HDV!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy Graham View Post
These guys went out and tested every 3ccd chip cam on the market and then chose the HD100, they got a worldwide cinema release with sony pictures.
Sorry, I read that article and he stated that the HD100 shot "in true progressive". Anyone who knows about HDV, knows that progressive doesn't exist in the 60i HDV container- he'd have to reverse telecine and soften his output to get his print made. Or capture from an expensive HDV deck via SDI OUT with a 24pA pulldown removal. Either way, ugly workflow.

De-interlacing is a destructive hassle. Why even do it at all when there are cameras like the HVX-200 and the Sony EX-1 which shoot in native mode?

Solid state is the future, best to start now.

-C
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Old May 6th, 2008, 09:35 PM   #7
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Of course progressive exists in 60i. The HV, XH and H1 Canons all can lay down 24 fps progressive frames. These are not interlaced.

Yes there is a pulldown, but pulldown removal in no way softens the image. And there is no deinterlacing involved simply because the frames are not interlaced.

Perhaps you are thinking back the DV days when the DVX had to use the advanced pulldown to keep pulldown removal from causing slight errors with split C frames. But those days are over with HDV. It's simply no longer an issue because HDV compresses fields and frames slightly differently than how DV does. There is no split frame problem with HDV, and there is no deinterlacing if the footage is shot in 24P mode.

Last edited by Peter Moretti; May 7th, 2008 at 12:11 AM.
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Old May 7th, 2008, 04:05 AM   #8
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As far as i know the hd100 does shoot true progressive scan in dv25p, HDV25p and HDV24p, I've worked with a lot of progressive over the years from DV to HDCAM and I personally think the hd100 in HDV25p mode is up there with the best of them. Of course I'm no authority on this, we need someone like Steve Mullen, Tim Dashwood or the likes to chime in with a more informed background.

I agree that solid state is the future though but its just a bit expensive at the moment

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Old May 7th, 2008, 04:34 AM   #9
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The JVC HD 100/200 series use HDV1 shooting 720p rather than 1080i. Recently I saw some JVC HD 200 shorts projected on a 2k cinema projector, even with a stock lens it was surprisingly good. Of course, having an interchangeable lens mount gives the option for better glass, including with the PL cine adapter 16mm film lenses.

Image quality wise in this price range the EX1 would currently appear to be the one to go for. Although, the JVC has the best ergonomics.
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Old May 7th, 2008, 04:41 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Christopher Drews View Post
Anyone who knows about HDV, knows that progressive doesn't exist in the 60i HDV container- he'd have to reverse telecine and soften his output to get his print made.
Progressive most certainly DOES exist in the 60i container, when it's referred to as psf - "progressive segmented frame" - the frames are true progressive, but with the lines reordered, so 1,3,5...... then 2,4,6...... etc, and 3:2 pulldown added. That makes it compatible with other 60i equipment for transmission, display etc.

Note that the difference between p and psf is only a matter of line order, so p can be seamlessly recontructed from psf - totally different to deinterlacing. Same principle as used for telecine transmission on an interlace system.
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Old May 7th, 2008, 05:10 AM   #11
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Blah.

Below refers to those who don't want to edit in 60i (29.97 NTSC)
DV 60i container = more work
HDV 60i container = more work
HDV 24pA firewire - hope that NLE sees flags = more work
720 DVCPRO HD (SxS also) 24pN = less work
1080i DVCPRO HD 24pA = less work (added frames automatically removed)
The ability to import footage without running TAPE realtime = priceless

DEVIL'S ADVOCATE : Where the hell is my master?

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Old May 7th, 2008, 05:50 PM   #12
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You generally don't edit 60i with a pulldown, as it can cause problems from unnoticeable to considerable.

Depending on camera and NLE, capturing a tape with 24P imbedded in 60i can be really easy or not possible without additional software (which is ususally free or <= $100).

So it can be painless, a hassle, or close to a RPITA... depending on camera, NLE, how you like to capture and your shooting style.
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Old May 8th, 2008, 10:50 AM   #13
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The EX1. I'm not a fan of the XH-A1, though the price and features are right, because of its chromatic aberration.
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Old May 8th, 2008, 12:57 PM   #14
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But from what I've seen the CA is on the wide end, which might not be used that much, depeding on shooting style. Since it's a 1/3 chip camera with deep DoF, I imagine he'll be zoomed in more than would be expected. BTW, the JVC on the other hand (which takes LOVELY images) exhibited some pretty gnarly CA on the zoom end on a test posted here about a month ago.

Last edited by Peter Moretti; May 8th, 2008 at 11:45 PM.
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Old May 8th, 2008, 02:02 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Moretti View Post
But from what I've seen the CA is on the wide end, which might not be used that much, depeding on shooting style. Since it's a 1/3 chip camera w/o deep DoF, I imagine he'll be zoomed in more than would be expected. BTW, the JVC on the other hand (which takes LOVELY images) exhibited some pretty gnarly CA on the zoom end on a test posted here about a month ago.
One of shorts filmed with the JVC that I saw had extreme CA around the very bright highlights in a pond. You really need good glass on any HD camera - even the high end 2/3" cameras can have some around the blind slats of burnt out windows.
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