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Old December 4th, 2008, 12:26 AM   #1
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A trip to Europe to follow my son in the school choir . . . what do I use?

A question from a newbie (and I have spent a lot of time here already, but I can't find the answer!):

My son's school choir is wonderful. (As if I'd say otherwise - duh.) (It's the Canberra Grammar Chamber Choir in Australia.) Last year they went to the Anzac celebrations in France and England; they were invited back next year. They get to sing in Westminster Abbey, Winchester Cathedral, St John's College Cambridge, St George's Chapel in Windsor Castle - and on the fields of the Somme in France. (They're talking about the Palace of Versailles too.)

It's a 40-voice SATB choir, accompanied with whatever is there - a capella sometimes, piano sometimes, organ in cathedrals.

We came back from the last trip with some very average home camcorder footage which was then produced (badly) and distributed to the parents and kids. And it was still wonderful. Next year we'd like to do them justice, so I'm planning to fund the cameras and sound gear, get a couple of amateurs trained in how to use the stuff, and get the output produced professionally.

But no-one has the answer: What gear should I get? I'm thinking two cameras and two mikes on booms in front of the choir - but they'd need to be wireless because we can't run wires back to a camera - or can we? Or do we record to a time-coded recorder sitting between the mikes? We can't just run a mike on the camera, or can we?

As for cameras I'm wondering if two HD camcorders will do the trick, or for what we need (low light performance especially) do we need to go the next step up?

The requirement is simple (!) - I need to bring back enough quality footage which can be then produced into something that everyone can enjoy.

Oh yes - there will be footage shot on the plane, impromptu a capella performances in French villages, short grabs of all the kids (and grownups) on the trip. But the key is to make sure that we can get very good sound and video inside cathedrals and on the fields of the Somme. The impromptu stuff - well, everyone expects that to be a bit rough.

And if this isn't the right place to post this, my apologies. I spent a good half hour deciding that alone!

Regards

Neil

P.S. To give you an idea of what sort of toys I normally play with I currently use a Nikon D70, a Sony HD camcorder (hard disk 120GB I think), I use a Rode Podcaster on my desk for presentations and the like (where a headset would be quite acceptable!). So I'm at the medium-high-quality consumer end of things. I have no problem in stepping up a level if that is required, but I don't want to spend money just for the sake of it. Funding five people for the trip is fairly expensive too . . .
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Old December 4th, 2008, 02:47 AM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Neil Bolton View Post
A question from a newbie (and I have spent a lot of time here already, but I can't find the answer!):

My son's school choir is wonderful. (As if I'd say otherwise - duh.) (It's the Canberra Grammar Chamber Choir in Australia.) Last year they went to the Anzac celebrations in France and England; they were invited back next year. They get to sing in Westminster Abbey, Winchester Cathedral, St John's College Cambridge, St George's Chapel in Windsor Castle - and on the fields of the Somme in France. (They're talking about the Palace of Versailles too.)

It's a 40-voice SATB choir, accompanied with whatever is there - a capella sometimes, piano sometimes, organ in cathedrals.

We came back from the last trip with some very average home camcorder footage which was then produced (badly) and distributed to the parents and kids. And it was still wonderful. Next year we'd like to do them justice, so I'm planning to fund the cameras and sound gear, get a couple of amateurs trained in how to use the stuff, and get the output produced professionally.

But no-one has the answer: What gear should I get? I'm thinking two cameras and two mikes on booms in front of the choir - but they'd need to be wireless because we can't run wires back to a camera - or can we? Or do we record to a time-coded recorder sitting between the mikes? We can't just run a mike on the camera, or can we?

As for cameras I'm wondering if two HD camcorders will do the trick, or for what we need (low light performance especially) do we need to go the next step up?

The requirement is simple (!) - I need to bring back enough quality footage which can be then produced into something that everyone can enjoy.

Oh yes - there will be footage shot on the plane, impromptu a capella performances in French villages, short grabs of all the kids (and grownups) on the trip. But the key is to make sure that we can get very good sound and video inside cathedrals and on the fields of the Somme. The impromptu stuff - well, everyone expects that to be a bit rough.

And if this isn't the right place to post this, my apologies. I spent a good half hour deciding that alone!

Regards

Neil

P.S. To give you an idea of what sort of toys I normally play with I currently use a Nikon D70, a Sony HD camcorder (hard disk 120GB I think), I use a Rode Podcaster on my desk for presentations and the like (where a headset would be quite acceptable!). So I'm at the medium-high-quality consumer end of things. I have no problem in stepping up a level if that is required, but I don't want to spend money just for the sake of it. Funding five people for the trip is fairly expensive too . . .
I'm no expert at this stuff but if low light is absolutely essential and you are OK with SD go with the PD170 (is the 190 also available in Australia?) as it has a rating of 1 lux. For HD perhaps the new Sony Z5, the Z7, or even the EX1 would do. As for mics, having them on-camera is acceptable (recently shot an orchestra performance with a PD190P and Rode NTG-1 plus PD100AP and Rode VideoMic, both mics on camera with decent sound) but definitely look into having a boom setup if possible. I think I'll leave it to the more experienced users here to go further. Good luck!
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Old December 4th, 2008, 05:23 AM   #3
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Sounds like you already have an SR12 (120G HD camera you mention). That's as good as you'll get for "low light" in a small cam, and a couple of those should be sufficiently simple for non-experts to press record and aim, once you've set them the way you want them (I personally run the AE shift a bit to the negative most times). You'd have to be the judge, having shot in the same locations previously, as to whether the SR will "go low" enough.

FWIW, the CX12 uses the same sensor block and is fairly similar to the SR's, but uses MS Duo for recording media. - if you have a laptop and the ability to dump footage "on the road", that cam could work well with the SR's.

Beyond that, you're starting to talk a lot of gear (heck, my SR11/CX12 multicam setup is a fair amount of gear!) You'll get "better" results with something like the EX1/3, but it's going to be bigger and bulkier for travel, and may not be a huge improvement other than if you're in truly "bad" lighting... Sony just released the FX1000 (tape based) as well, and it's getting decent reviews for low light, and it's a bit less money.

You should be sure to kit out any "camera operators" with proper support (tripod/monopod/stabilizer). THAT is probably more critical to getting good usable HD footage than the choice of camera. In good to decent light, the small consumer cameras shoot some pretty good footage as long as you can keep them steady! You could add on some lighting in the budget for "close in" interview type stuff - if you're shooting in a dark interior, well now you are going to have to have a camera that can handle that, and you're back to the "big guns"...

Hope that wasn't too confusing, I myself have a very compact setup using the small cams, and find it's pretty good for most situations. Don't reach for the big cams much anymore...

For audio, you might want to take a look at some good quality digital recorders (lots of good reviews here on DVi in the dedicated audio section), sync in post. You'll get a far better audio track to work with than the cameras can provide, and since this is after all primarily a "audio" event, that's where I'd put more of the budget.
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Old December 6th, 2008, 03:20 AM   #4
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Thanks and more questions (as usual)

Colin, Dave

Thanks. I've surfed and found out a lot. Dave: I'm definitely dumb - I can't find the "dedicated audio section". You've confirmed my gut feel - the quality of the image I get from the Sony is quite extraordinary, and while it would be good to go to the FX1000 the downside of size, bulk, weight etc tells me that little cameras would be better. Yes, we've got heaps of computing power traveling with us so the backup camera could well be the CX12 - and it would probably be good to have similar quality and style in the video from both cameras.

Colin - thanks for the on-camera mike info. I'll definitely get a Rode mike (or something very similar) but I also think that some sort of dedicated audio miked with a couple of good mikes on stands would produce more consistent sound. But once I go that route a lot of other questions arise - how do I sync the sound from a dedicated recorder with the video from a couple of cameras? (This is where I need to find the link to the audio section!)

And I will definitely get a couple of good tripods. We suffered this week by having a cheap tripod.

A couple of people have suggested the all-in-one digital recorders that are cropping up - the ones with two mikes at an angle. The suggestion is to put just one of them on a stand in front of the choir. Any comments on this idea? If it works it would be wonderful.

But you're right Dave - this really is an audio event. That's what we have to get right.

Neil
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Old December 6th, 2008, 05:22 AM   #5
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Rather you then me. but...

This sound like a series of prerecorded Outside Broadcasts to me and the logistics should not be underestimated. Sorry if you are already aware of all these issues but I'm hoping some of this will be helpful.

Locations:
The recording of choir and organ in different locations on tour is a HUGE undertaking. Ideally, each location should be scouted well in advance with level checks and test recordings made and the best part of a day set aside for set up ... and that's just the audio. Have you checked with the location authorities that they will allow you to set up cameras and mics by the way? You can't just walk in to a cathedral and set up gear. Many ban cameras as a matter of policy.

Wireless:
Yes it's possible but you must check the legal frequencies for the counties you will be in, and have the appropriate equipment. It could save you time in running cables, but against that there could be interference from a number of sources.

Cables:
That's the usual way of doing things but you must consult the cathedral staff on health and safety issues and cable runs must not present a hazard. You may well need LONG runs to accommodate this - could you carry several cables on tour?

Practical suggestions:
You do NOT want on-camera mics for this. It would sound very distant and lose all clarity in the acoustic of a cathedral. Get a good stereo mic or a matched pair (I get pretty decent results with Rode NT-1A mics) set up as a stereo pair above head height in front of the choir. That will however leave the organ to take its chance - it would be better to have a separate mic for the organ if possible but that usually means using an audio mixer - more gear to carry and set up. We would have to know the performance layout to predict whether a simple stereo pair run straight to the camera would work in capturing audio satisfactorily.

If that seems unlikely to work, you could abandon the stereo for the choir and go for a single front centrally placed mic for the choir and keep the other channel for the organ. It will be possible to create some kind of acceptable stereo image in post.

If you need more mics, a multichannel recorder is the usual solution, but you could might consider running mics for choir, organ and soloist(s) in pairs of channels to several different cameras and sync it all up in post. Renting cameras like the Canon XH-G1 that can be synched together means you can do this much more easily, but it can be done with a bit of luck and a lot of work in post with less exotic equipment.

Whether you use the camera(s) or a portable recorder to record the audio, microphone placement is going to make or break the result.

Other:
Planning is everything. I do events/concerts like this from time to time and without anything like the gear I really should have and it takes a long time to work out in advance how to do it. Then the gear must be all set up and tested before the rehearsal starts - tripods, stands, cables (usually with mats/covers or ramps over passageways and aisles, and some "up and overs" at doorways etc.) and finally mics/cameras/mixers/monitors etc. If you are happy to do a lot of work in post you can simplify things on the day and avoid mixing live. You may feel an idiot at the time and get some funny looks from the audience, but if you can walk into shot of all the cameras (just before the performance starts) and clap your hands you have a sync reference point which is invaluable.

To get decent audio, you (and the audience) will probably have to accept some degree of visual intrusion from mics and stands in front of performers. I'm not even going to start on lighting under tour conditions, and please tells us none of the performances use an orchestra :-)

Last edited by Colin McDonald; December 7th, 2008 at 02:20 AM. Reason: careliss speling
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Old December 6th, 2008, 05:53 AM   #6
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[...]please tells us none of the performances use an orchestra :-)
+1 on evrything you said. Of course what i film is pretty low-key so on-camera mics work OK but I have to admit there was a very high margin of error there.
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Old December 6th, 2008, 06:05 AM   #7
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Interesting opportunity. The challenges presented seem to crop up on three fronts: audio quality, video (like dur) and logistics.

SOUND - The sonic issues are really beyond my pay grade for the most part but you do not want to use any mics attached to a camera. You're just too far away and if you use a shotgun mic and pan the camera, the sound will change. I think the best you can do is use a pair of mics on stands. I cannot recommend any specific mics but I don't think you want shotguns. I'd guess cardiods would be good, but I'll leave that to someone with more experience. I think you're going to want your own stands. Something that can get fairly tall would be good, but for portability you could get away with something that reaches to a couple of meters high could work. Look for light ones with folding legs. Easier to transport.

VIDEO - Your current cam should work as the B cam. You haven't said whether it will be operated or locked off. If it's static, a cheap, solid tripod will work just fine. If there's ever a place where you could clamp something to a post or scaffolding, you might want to look into the Manfrotto Super Clamp system. This might give you some interesting looking camera placements.

This next bit is key. Get good sticks and head for your A cam. You'll want a fluid head for smooth pans and tilts. The better Libec units review well. I have a cheaper Libec set and the legs are very stiff. I think they're aluminum so they should be light.

You'll really want an A cam with XLR inputs. Without them, you'll just hate being you. I can't really comment on Sony cams since I'm a Canon guy but for your purposes, sticking with Sony makes sense.

LOGISTICS - You'll really want to come up with some kind of travel case arrangement that will protect your gear and make it easy to transport. You'll might want to get a big Pelican case with wheels for the mics, cables, batteries, tapes, hard drives, etc. that can be checked on aircraft. You'll probably want to package your A cam separately so you can carry it onto the plane. You don't want to trust it to guys whose mantra is "fragile means underhand".

I'd recommend doing some tests during local rehearsals well before the big travel day arrives. You'll be doing this over and over whilst in Europe and you'll want everything to go as smoothly as you can make it.

Hope that helps, and good luck.
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Old December 6th, 2008, 07:50 AM   #8
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Neil,

I feel the high end options are very well covered by previous posts and I just want to add a very simple additional option that resolves some of the complications but has it's own downsides.

Rent / buy three solid state recorders with good built-in stereo mikes at an angle (I lost overview, I suggest checking online reviews for which ones have the best sound from their own mikes).

Two of them in front of the choir, one goes as close as possible to the organ/piano/orchestra. Start them at the beginning of the show, check during the break and pray they run through (reasonably, they should). They got their own batteries, so no cables required whatsoever.

Take footage with the small Sony's and monopods (tripods if possible, but you can smuggle small monopods/sony cams, small micstands and those small solid state audio things into pretty much any place).

Back at home, get someone with decent sound mixing experience. Give him the 6 tracks (3*stereo) and the task to pick a few "gems" out of the portfolio of songs and create a good mix for them. This poor person will have to synch tracks manually for every song and compensate all the imperfections (echo, noise, clipping), but there you could spend some of the money you saved on gear. 6 tracks = quite some material to adjust levels and fix recording errors.

After you got the best songs, get the footage that belongs to it. If you told your camera operators to keep rolling from beginning of the show towards the pause / end, synching 5 cameras will be less headdache. Still, probably every single closeup will have to be adjusted for lipsynch manually anyway (we are talking Sony consumer cams). THIS IS THE KEY: In my experience it's not much more headache to synch 4 cameras to a 5th with synch sound than synching 5 cameras to a recorded song.

A lot of manual "tuning" in post process, but a lot of money and trouble saved on your trip.

Just my 2 cents. By the way, congratulations! Westminster! Wow! (not to mention all the other great places)

Thomas
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Old December 6th, 2008, 10:37 AM   #9
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Neil.


Can I suggest you go a different route for this.

Why not contact the ABC, SBS, or Film Australia to see if they would be interested in making a documantary around this event. If they are not, they may give you a contact for an entity who might be interested.

If it comes off, you will get your coverage with a lot less pain and grief for yourself. Your workload on the journey is probably going to be hard enough. If you are documenting it audio-visually, to do it justice, you would ideally not be encumbered with other competing responsibilities.
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Old December 6th, 2008, 02:04 PM   #10
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Hi.............

I've been pondering the logistics of your venture long and hard since you first posted, mentally going over the sheer amount of gear and organization required to pull it off in any meaningfull way.

I have to admit my first, second and even third reaction was: Holy Mother of God, what a nightmare.

Hence no post, till now.

Bob's comment (above) got me to thinking a tad lateral.

(BTW, there is distinct merit in what he says, tho' I have my doubts as to it's sellability).

My thinking goes thus:

There are really two different shoots going on here.

Firstly, the fixed, set piece extravaganza's which really need a shed load of gear, and, more importantly, a shed load of people who know what they're doing to set up, mike, light, shoot and record everything going on.

Second, the ad hoc, run 'n gun type stuff which can be shot on a "if you get it, you get it, if you don't, too bad" basis - on the plane/ bus/ dining rooms etc etc.

I think, Neil, you and your band of happy amateurs can probably handle the latter with a bit of training and practice. It's the sort of thing that can be practised long and hard before you set out and the equipment and techniques refined to give a pretty good result.

The first is a different kettle of muffins altogether.

There really is no substitute for decent gear and people who know how to use it for these situations.

Now, whereas I can see you guys pretty easilly carrying and using the gear for Item 2, I cannot see how you can do justice to Item 1.

So, my suggestion.

As the Item 1 locations are both known and fixed, as are the dates and times AND hopefully, permissions can be had (never underestimate the ability of beurocracy to derail even the simplest venture) why not put out an APB (all points bulletin) to European based DVinfo'ers who are tooled up for this sort of thing and see if you can rustle up some willing helpers?

Post the locations, dates and times (their start times, not the event start times) and the gear required and see what crawls out of the woodwork (I know, DVinfo'ers don't "crawl out.............").

As for gear: Mikes, stands, a good multi channel mixer, wireless systems, HD camera's (name your poison as to type), camera supports, lights?, etc etc etc.

I reckon with a bit of persuasion (expenses would be a good start) you could put together a pretty decent OB crew for at least some of the events, if not all.

When I posted my own APB a year or so ago, I had DVinfo'ers volunteering from as far away as the UK, USA and even Canada!

(I hasten to add, this was for a fixture here in the liddle 'ol South Island of NZ mind, and that's quite a treck for a shoot! The sheer quality and quantity of volunteers was embarrassing.)

In the event this doesn't do the trick (can't see why it won't) you could aways "go large" and hire in the needed talent, I'm sure some of our European DVinfo'ers could point you in the right direction.

I realise that latter option is getting up there in the costs stakes but maybe the other parents can be persuaded to cough a proportion.

Food for thought.


CS


PS: Do wish CH and Jeff had got the "regional flags" thing sorted for this, would have made your job a lot easier getting those volunteers. (nudge, nudge).

Last edited by Chris Soucy; December 6th, 2008 at 11:34 PM. Reason: Embelishment & spelling corrections (why not - it's free)
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Old December 6th, 2008, 02:28 PM   #11
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How I would do it:

Get one performance recorded professionally. In the venue that will be easiest to record. Shoot video and stills of the whole trip. Put it all together. You can even use appropriate audio from local performances.
If you try to record a whole performance with good audio and good video it will never happen. You will have a very long home movie with bad sound. Make it into something exciting, with tight shots of the kids. Shoot to get the energy and emotion.
Documenting doesn't have to mean starting the video in the balcony at the beginning of each performance.
Also, some of the places you mentioned are very dark. Without video lighting you will have marginal footage. Another reason to not think linear.
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Old December 6th, 2008, 04:39 PM   #12
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Neil, there is some great advice in the posts. It all depends on how much you want to upgrade from your last experience.

I have used a compact digital recorder, a Zoom H2, with results I was very pleased with for a choir concert my daughter sang in. I wasn't as close as I should have been but it was still very good.

I used the same H2 to record a pipe organ for a short documentary.

If I was doing the trip, two camcorders, decent tripods and the H2 would be on my list.
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Old December 7th, 2008, 02:15 AM   #13
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Neil,
How soon is this all happening?
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Old December 7th, 2008, 02:55 AM   #14
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Guys - there is a lot of great advice here. Awesome, in fact. Thanks to everyone so far! What's great about this is that I have been researching and asking everyone that I can think of with no real answers; I post the question on this forum and I get heaps of help. Gotta love technology.

In answer to Colin: No, there's no orchestra! As for lighting - that's why I'm looking for low light performance - lighting would be out of the question. One of the performances will be in Hyde Park for the dawn Anzac ceremony, so it would not only be logistically difficult, it wouldn't be very respectful.

Don: Thanks for focusing me on making what someone is going to actually watch.

Where I am right now:

Get three Zoom H4s (I'm assuming because "4" is bigger than "2" that the H4 is better for me than the H2 . . . ) for the sound. I'm guessing that syncing the sound is going to be hard work no matter what I do. By going the stand-alone recorders route I'll eliminate the need for wireless mikes - except that I've realised I'll need a couple of lavs for the soloists. (One is my son, so I can't miss that. He's not likely to get to sing solo in Westminster Abbey more than once in a lifetime.)

And yes, Westminster Abbey is a wonderful highlight, but apparently getting the gig at St George's Chapel in Windsor Castle is an even harder thing. They did Westminster last year; to get invited back two years later was very surprising.

So, three stand-alone recorders, two wireless lavs (feeding into a Zoom?) and a Rode (stereo?) shotgun for the ad-hoc stuff. That's the audio sorted. Maybe.

I'd love some comments, particularly if I have it wrong!

Cameras: It seems my humble Sony HD camcorder is quite good. I actually won it, which makes it even better. Yes, I think it would be the good B cam. As for the A cam - it starts to get to be an expensive hobby, doesn't it???

It seems that the new Sony EX1 is nice, although a bit pricey in Oz at A$9,300. Is the 0.14 lux spec real? Does that really compare with the 7 lux spec of my Sony? If it really does do 0.14 lux does that mean it will record in the dark - or at least record in cathedrals?

Yes, I could probably convince myself I could afford it if it really is going to show in the final result. (Ouch!) And if I bought that then I'd have to spend at least $1,000 on the tripod to do it justice.

As for calling an APB nearer the date - that might be by far the best solution! Given that it's an Anzac trip I reckon we'd get some expat Aussies and Kiwis to help.

Colin: I just saw your post re when it is happening - 13 April to 1 May 2009. We start off in the fields of France; end in St George's Chapel I think. So we probably do have enough time to work out what we want and then practice a lot.

Thanks again guys.

Neil
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Old December 7th, 2008, 03:10 AM   #15
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Hi again.......

Neil,

If you're going to call an APB don't leave it till later, tempus fugit and all that crap, this takes time.

It's possible that a cam (or cams) suitable for the lo light can be sourced on location saving the gut busting expense, you'd really be suprised at what the DVinfo net can capture.

Go for the APB now and see what happens, it will give you an idea of what you will have and what you won't.

More grist to the mill.


CS
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