Which DV cam works best with chromakey? at DVinfo.net

Go Back   DV Info Net > The Tools of DV and HD Production > Open DV Discussion

Open DV Discussion
For topics which don't fit into any of the other categories.


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old October 29th, 2003, 01:18 PM   #1
Regular Crew
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 104
Which DV cam works best with chromakey?

I'm looking for a DV cam that can shoot greenscreens with as little signal noise as possible.

We'll be lighting the screen with even light, and lighting the foreground actors seperately (I forget what the light artists call that...)

We might audition different cams, but from ya'lls experience, what's the best cam for shooting greenscreens?

We're shooting indoors, controlled lighting, all plate work is done in post...not doing any live keying on this..
Ted Bragg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 29th, 2003, 01:31 PM   #2
Hawaiian Shirt Mogul
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: northern cailfornia
Posts: 1,261
BEST ! stay away from 4:1:1 format = dv25 ...if you do use dv25 format use a camera like sony DSR 500 or better ...

digibeta does very good .. dvcpro50 also does very good ...

you might check with your effects persons as i find depending on the project they prefer PROGRESSIVE frames over interlace - which then leaves you with panasonic 900 24p camera that can shoot 30P ( and 24P ) and can also shoot dvcPro50 (4:2:2)
Don Donatello is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 29th, 2003, 09:33 PM   #3
Regular Crew
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 104
Ouch. The Panny 24p is pricey, but it DOES have those nifty cine-gadgets...

It'd be the most expensive part of this production.

Hmmm.

Maybe we should shoot a presentation reel on what we've got now (Pana DV53), get funding and then go get the 24p...

In a pinch, we could rent the digibetas at the cable co. but I don't have any editing gear to handle footage from those...

You're right; my CG guy's face lit up when I mentioned progressive...

"Yes! Yes! Please give me progressive! No interlace! nooooo interlace!"

:D
Ted Bragg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 30th, 2003, 11:11 AM   #4
Hawaiian Shirt Mogul
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: northern cailfornia
Posts: 1,261
you did say BEST ...

does your pan53 do frame mode ?

you can make do with what you have ... try frame mode type camera ... do test before shoot and have your effects person play with it so he can make suggestions what is working and what is not ..
when effects person apply chroma key you may not get the whole background ( look at mask) so apply a 2nd/3rd chroma key fx on the area's you didn't get with 1st chroma key then render out a MASK for later use to put in background plate ...
Don Donatello is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 30th, 2003, 02:25 PM   #5
Regular Crew
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Cambridge, UK
Posts: 164
Another way...

here's a completely different approach that I use to give excellent quality colour keys.

Use an analogue camera. That's right, I use an old 1980s Ikegami HC230 colour camera (I bought it for 350 on Ebay), together with an old early 1990s DPS Perception PVR card (bought for 500 on Ebay).

With this pair I avoid the low chroma bandwidth of DV25 (and DV50) cameras, and can capture at 13.5MByte/second. Result - lovely smooth chroma variations, no blockiness, and excellent keys.

The downside? Well, the other crew members do tend to look askance at this old kit...

Julian
Julian Luttrell is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 30th, 2003, 05:29 PM   #6
Inner Circle
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Toronto, Canada
Posts: 4,750
According to Adam Wilt's DV FAQ you can get keys from DV that are as good as betaSP provided you apply chroma smoothing/interpolation. Some NLEs and keyers do this while others can't.
Glenn Chan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 30th, 2003, 11:04 PM   #7
Regular Crew
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Cambridge, UK
Posts: 164
Analogue...

I'm not suggesting you go via an analogue tape format (such as BetaSP) - as you point out this has the same or lower quality than DV25.

Instead take an analogue component feed direct from the back of the camera and capture/digitise that to the computer. That gives (in this camera's case) 600 TV lines - a LOT better than BetaSP!

I'm not the only one thinking this way - you might ask yourself why companies like ReflecMedia use just such an analogue setup when demonstrating their greenscreen/bluescreen keying systems.

Regards,

Julian
Julian Luttrell is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 30th, 2003, 11:19 PM   #8
Inner Circle
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Toronto, Canada
Posts: 4,750
Ok I get you now. Skip tape entirely and capture uncompressed or some other computer format.
Glenn Chan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 31st, 2003, 07:34 PM   #9
Wrangler
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Vallejo, California
Posts: 4,049
The biggest difference in 25 Mhz DV will be made by the keying software. If you use one of the packages that converts the video to 4:2:2 and then applies the key, you will get better results.

DV25 is pretty much DV25. DV25 format is the limit. Some cameras can deliver close to that limit.

If I had a choice, I'd go rent a D-9 (heck, I'd like to own a D-9 camera along with one of the decks). But you still will have to have something better than a straight DVC5 editing package to take advantage of it.
__________________
Mike Rehmus
Hey, I can see the carrot at the end of the tunnel!
Mike Rehmus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 1st, 2003, 10:12 AM   #10
Contributor
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Kansas City, MO
Posts: 4,449
Every program we do these days has extensive keying. I shoot all studio stuff with a DSR500WS, and usually it's 16:9. I've found that the keying is about the same as it was when I was shooting Betacam SP, but sometimes it's a little more difficult to get a great key. With Betacam, loaded into Avid Media Composer via component, I got pretty good keys using the Avid keying software. Now with DVCAM, loaded via firewire into an Xpress Pro, the Avid keying isn't so wonderful...so we started using Ultimatte, and it works fine. Recently, however, we started experimenting with Boris and, believe it or not, we are getting perfect keying with Boris, and it's more flexible than Ultimatte.
Bill Pryor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 2nd, 2003, 06:05 PM   #11
Regular Crew
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 104
<<<-- Originally posted by Mike Rehmus : The biggest difference in 25 Mhz DV will be made by the keying software. If you use one of the packages that converts the video to 4:2:2 and then applies the key, you will get better results.
-->>>

This is encouraging. Which apps can convert footage from 4:1:1 to 4:2:2?

If I can use existing DV25 cams and then use software to bump it up to a workable frmat, then great!
Ted Bragg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 2nd, 2003, 06:55 PM   #12
Wrangler
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Vallejo, California
Posts: 4,049
The Canopus real time cards convert. Don't know about others. It may be that After Effects does starting with version 6.
__________________
Mike Rehmus
Hey, I can see the carrot at the end of the tunnel!
Mike Rehmus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 2nd, 2003, 07:01 PM   #13
Inner Circle
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Toronto, Canada
Posts: 4,750
FCP3 with filters, FCP4's chroma smoothing filter, and the good keying programs all convert from 4:1:1 color space to a higher color space.
Glenn Chan is offline   Reply
Reply

DV Info Net refers all where-to-buy and where-to-rent questions exclusively to these trusted full line dealers and rental houses...

Professional Video
(800) 833-4801
Portland, OR

B&H Photo Video
(866) 521-7381
New York, NY

Z.G.C.
(973) 335-4460
Mountain Lakes, NJ

Abel Cine Tech
(888) 700-4416
N.Y. NY & L.A. CA

Precision Camera
(800) 677-1023
Austin, TX

DV Info Net also encourages you to support local businesses and buy from an authorized dealer in your neighborhood.
  You are here: DV Info Net > The Tools of DV and HD Production > Open DV Discussion

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

 



Google
 

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 05:50 PM.


DV Info Net -- Real Names, Real People, Real Info!
1998-2017 The Digital Video Information Network