The art of framing.

Charles Papert · March 16th, 2004, 12:40 PM

Not sure I understand your question, Alfred...

In my example, right and left can be interchanged. It's more about which direction the hero is facing relative to where he is in the frame (in the example given, we are "short-siding" him).

Alfred Okocha · March 16th, 2004, 01:31 PM

Keith wrote "These are the rules I remember:

The hero always comes from the left of the frame and the villain from the right."

It was this I was commenting.. your post, Charles, made perfect sense to me!
Thanks.
Soon to wite your 1500 post.. (better make it special:-)

Charles Papert · March 16th, 2004, 02:29 PM

yeah, but who's counting?

Sorry, I missed Keith's post somehow--weird.

Regarding having single figures in the frame not being centered: yes, normally. On "American History X", the director insisted that I center-punch to such a degree that he would call for another take if the crosshairs were not between the eyes. I wish I were joking, but I'm not. Never really figured out what he was going after with that. I think he read somewhere that Kubrick was fond of this and decided to make it a law.

Keith Loh · March 16th, 2004, 02:34 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by Alfred Okocha : "the hero from the left... villain from the right.."

When they are introduced? Is that right?
Never thought of it.. -->>>

I just read that somewhere but when you think about it, for some reason it always seems to be the case. This is especially so in fighting movies.

I think perhaps part of the reason is that side scrolling games were like this. But then maybe they themselves were influenced by film.

Think of western gunfights.

Alfred Okocha · March 16th, 2004, 02:54 PM

I really enjoyed American history X!
Edward Norton at his very best. Can't remember any odd framing.. I better pick it up again to see what you mean. :-)

I can remember nice light though! Was it you?

Richard Alvarez · March 16th, 2004, 04:13 PM

A good book on composition, framing and storyboarding (which is the art of "framing a film" on paper)

Setting Up Your Shots
by Jeremy Vineyard, Illustrated by Jose Cruz

Charles Papert · March 16th, 2004, 07:12 PM

<<I can remember nice light though! Was it you?>>

No, I did some second unit shooting which didn't end up in the film. The director, Tony Kaye, was also the DP and operator (although I got the credit). The film was shot largely unlit and mostly handheld, sort of like a low budget DV shoot yet on 35mm and with a full crew standing around!

The weird thing about his insisting on how I frame was that I noticed when the movie came out that he didn't hold himself to the same criteria. He was an odd duck. The stories surrounding Tony and his theatrical nature are now Hollywood legend.

Alfred Okocha · March 17th, 2004, 02:37 AM

Tony Kaye.. I can't remember I've seen anything else by him.. What has he done?

"He was an odd duck." Has he passes away?

Thanks.

Alessandro Machi · March 17th, 2004, 02:57 AM

Rules, Rules, Rules.

The one about the eyes is one of the most important rules. My rule about the eyes is the eyes need to stay above the bottom 50% of the screen. That would be a guideline. If they person being interviewed has a birdnest in their hair then you probably break the rule.

One of my favorites is don't let the person being interviewed nose extend out farther than the more distant cheek unless you are doing a profile.

Always wear headphones.

Use a tripod with a ball socket center column.

Make sure you have balanced your camera on the tripod to the point where you can let go of the camera handle and the camera won't dip forward or backwards.

Check for white specks on your clients who are dressed in dark suits BEFORE you put them on camera.

People being interviewed should not be chewing gum unless it matches the mood of the piece.

Use Zebras!

Lower your camera & tripod if you have to leave it unattended. Don't leave your camera & tripod unattended.

If you are using an external television monitor for a live event always place the monitor in peripheral view so you can instantly see what is actually going on on stage without having to turn your head.

When framing an active performer, take into account if they stretch their arms and try to anticipate those stretches.

Cue cards don't work as well as telemprompters. Teleprompter services are not that expensive.

If you don't have a make up person, at least bring one powder puff for each person to be interviewed and some fleshtone powder.

Listen and disable if possible air conditioners. RADIO'S, refrigerators etc.

Remember to put everything back the way it was when you are done.

Aaron Rosen · March 17th, 2004, 03:34 AM

REMOVE the Lens Cap.

Charge your batteries.

Make sure the time code is rolling and you are recording.

Brian Huey · March 17th, 2004, 03:40 AM

The Tony Kaye subject probably deserves it's own topic, but basically what I've heard/read is that on American History X his cut of the movie was much shorter and faster paced. But the studio recut it into what was released, Tony fought against losing creative control of the project, tried to get his directing credit replaced with "Alan Smithee", which didn't happen and he's been trying to fight Hollywood ever since and hasn't directed another movie there yet. IMDB lists "Snowblind" as being another movie he directed in 2002 but no information besides a brief plot and the screenwriter are listed.

Here's a site with some info

Don't know how much of what I related is correct, just what I've gathered from what I've read about him. Hopefully Charles P. will have some insight on the subject!

Cheers,
Brian

Alfred Okocha · March 17th, 2004, 07:27 AM

Thanks for your many pointers. very noteworthy.

ON the subject of Tony Kaye I found this interview with him.

http://www.fadeinmag.com/kaye/interview1.html

More or less what Brian's stated.. He seems to be a character alright.. or a "odd duck". ;-)

Norm Couture · March 17th, 2004, 07:57 AM

Here's a link to a useful website:

http://www.jamesarnett.com/sections.html#anchor130335

Go to the Production section and click Camera Works and Composition.

Also look at the "Cross the Line" interactive demo section at the top of the index page...
Lots of info about all aspects of film making or video.

Have fun!

Rob Lohman · March 17th, 2004, 08:16 AM

Tony's IMDB link for more info on his "films"

Charles Papert · March 17th, 2004, 12:10 PM

mmm, don't want to hijack this thread further but as I recall, Tony's application for "Alan Smithee" status was rejected because part of the extensive set of criteria for that designation is that the director does not publicly denigrate the film, the producers or the studio. Tony did all of that. He actually wanted his credit to read: "Directed by Humpty Dumpty".

And he is still alive and making commercials, as he always has.

March 16th, 2004, 12:40 PM	#16
Charles Papert Wrangler Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 6,810	Not sure I understand your question, Alfred... In my example, right and left can be interchanged. It's more about which direction the hero is facing relative to where he is in the frame (in the example given, we are "short-siding" him). __________________ Charles Papert www.charlespapert.com

March 16th, 2004, 02:29 PM	#18
Charles Papert Wrangler Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 6,810	yeah, but who's counting? Sorry, I missed Keith's post somehow--weird. Regarding having single figures in the frame not being centered: yes, normally. On "American History X", the director insisted that I center-punch to such a degree that he would call for another take if the crosshairs were not between the eyes. I wish I were joking, but I'm not. Never really figured out what he was going after with that. I think he read somewhere that Kubrick was fond of this and decided to make it a law. __________________ Charles Papert www.charlespapert.com

March 16th, 2004, 02:34 PM	#19
Keith Loh Air China Pilot Join Date: May 2002 Location: Vancouver, B.C. Posts: 2,389	<<<-- Originally posted by Alfred Okocha : "the hero from the left... villain from the right.." When they are introduced? Is that right? Never thought of it.. -->>> I just read that somewhere but when you think about it, for some reason it always seems to be the case. This is especially so in fighting movies. I think perhaps part of the reason is that side scrolling games were like this. But then maybe they themselves were influenced by film. Think of western gunfights. __________________ -- Visit http://www.KeithLoh.com \| stuff about living in Vancouver \| My Flickr photo gallery

March 16th, 2004, 07:12 PM	#22
Charles Papert Wrangler Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 6,810	<<I can remember nice light though! Was it you?>> No, I did some second unit shooting which didn't end up in the film. The director, Tony Kaye, was also the DP and operator (although I got the credit). The film was shot largely unlit and mostly handheld, sort of like a low budget DV shoot yet on 35mm and with a full crew standing around! The weird thing about his insisting on how I frame was that I noticed when the movie came out that he didn't hold himself to the same criteria. He was an odd duck. The stories surrounding Tony and his theatrical nature are now Hollywood legend. __________________ Charles Papert www.charlespapert.com

March 17th, 2004, 02:57 AM	#24
Alessandro Machi Major Player Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Los Angeles, Ca USA Posts: 553	Rules, Rules, Rules. The one about the eyes is one of the most important rules. My rule about the eyes is the eyes need to stay above the bottom 50% of the screen. That would be a guideline. If they person being interviewed has a birdnest in their hair then you probably break the rule. One of my favorites is don't let the person being interviewed nose extend out farther than the more distant cheek unless you are doing a profile. Always wear headphones. Use a tripod with a ball socket center column. Make sure you have balanced your camera on the tripod to the point where you can let go of the camera handle and the camera won't dip forward or backwards. Check for white specks on your clients who are dressed in dark suits BEFORE you put them on camera. People being interviewed should not be chewing gum unless it matches the mood of the piece. Use Zebras! Lower your camera & tripod if you have to leave it unattended. Don't leave your camera & tripod unattended. If you are using an external television monitor for a live event always place the monitor in peripheral view so you can instantly see what is actually going on on stage without having to turn your head. When framing an active performer, take into account if they stretch their arms and try to anticipate those stretches. Cue cards don't work as well as telemprompters. Teleprompter services are not that expensive. If you don't have a make up person, at least bring one powder puff for each person to be interviewed and some fleshtone powder. Listen and disable if possible air conditioners. RADIO'S, refrigerators etc. Remember to put everything back the way it was when you are done. __________________ https://alexlogic.blogspot.com/ Los Angeles Emmy Winner (yes, used a video edit controller and loved doing so.)

March 16th, 2004, 01:31 PM	#17
Alfred Okocha Major Player Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: London Posts: 427	Keith wrote "These are the rules I remember: The hero always comes from the left of the frame and the villain from the right." It was this I was commenting.. your post, Charles, made perfect sense to me! Thanks. Soon to wite your 1500 post.. (better make it special:-)

March 16th, 2004, 02:54 PM	#20
Alfred Okocha Major Player Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: London Posts: 427	I really enjoyed American history X! Edward Norton at his very best. Can't remember any odd framing.. I better pick it up again to see what you mean. :-) I can remember nice light though! Was it you?

March 16th, 2004, 04:13 PM	#21
Richard Alvarez Inner Circle Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: San Mateo, CA Posts: 3,840	A good book on composition, framing and storyboarding (which is the art of "framing a film" on paper) Setting Up Your Shots by Jeremy Vineyard, Illustrated by Jose Cruz

March 17th, 2004, 02:37 AM	#23
Alfred Okocha Major Player Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: London Posts: 427	Tony Kaye.. I can't remember I've seen anything else by him.. What has he done? "He was an odd duck." Has he passes away? Thanks.

March 17th, 2004, 03:34 AM	#25
Aaron Rosen Major Player Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: HB, CA - USA Posts: 298	REMOVE the Lens Cap. Charge your batteries. Make sure the time code is rolling and you are recording.

March 17th, 2004, 03:40 AM	#26
Brian Huey Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Seattle , WA Posts: 184	The Tony Kaye subject probably deserves it's own topic, but basically what I've heard/read is that on American History X his cut of the movie was much shorter and faster paced. But the studio recut it into what was released, Tony fought against losing creative control of the project, tried to get his directing credit replaced with "Alan Smithee", which didn't happen and he's been trying to fight Hollywood ever since and hasn't directed another movie there yet. IMDB lists "Snowblind" as being another movie he directed in 2002 but no information besides a brief plot and the screenwriter are listed. Here's a site with some info Don't know how much of what I related is correct, just what I've gathered from what I've read about him. Hopefully Charles P. will have some insight on the subject! Cheers, Brian

March 17th, 2004, 07:27 AM	#27
Alfred Okocha Major Player Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: London Posts: 427	Thanks for your many pointers. very noteworthy. ON the subject of Tony Kaye I found this interview with him. http://www.fadeinmag.com/kaye/interview1.html More or less what Brian's stated.. He seems to be a character alright.. or a "odd duck". ;-)

March 17th, 2004, 07:57 AM	#28
Norm Couture Regular Crew Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Quebec, QC, Canada Posts: 123	Here's a link to a useful website: http://www.jamesarnett.com/sections.html#anchor130335 Go to the Production section and click Camera Works and Composition. Also look at the "Cross the Line" interactive demo section at the top of the index page... Lots of info about all aspects of film making or video. Have fun! __________________ Norm :)

March 17th, 2004, 08:16 AM	#29
Rob Lohman RED Code Chef Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Holland Posts: 12,514	Tony's IMDB link for more info on his "films" __________________ Rob Lohman, visuar@iname.com DV Info Wrangler & RED Code Chef Join the DV Challenge \| Lady X Search DVinfo.net for quick answers \| Buy from the best: DVinfo.net sponsors

March 17th, 2004, 12:10 PM	#30
Charles Papert Wrangler Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 6,810	mmm, don't want to hijack this thread further but as I recall, Tony's application for "Alan Smithee" status was rejected because part of the extensive set of criteria for that designation is that the director does not publicly denigrate the film, the producers or the studio. Tony did all of that. He actually wanted his credit to read: "Directed by Humpty Dumpty". And he is still alive and making commercials, as he always has. __________________ Charles Papert www.charlespapert.com