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Old March 16th, 2004, 03:53 AM   #1
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Again.. which are the native 16:9 cams?

You get so much misinfo everywhere but.. I mean which cams record on 16:9 chips?

The DSR-500 is one right.
The PDX 10 another?


Thanks?
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Old March 16th, 2004, 01:20 PM   #2
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I've heard mention here that a couple of the
1CCD-Sonys do. TRV33 and 38, I believe.
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Old March 16th, 2004, 09:16 PM   #3
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You are right about the Sony PDX10. And there is the 570, presumably newer than the 500.

There is also the Panasonic AJ-SDX900P, an awesome (and expensive) cam. Does 16:9 *and* 24P, as well as 30P. It's a DVCPRO camera though.

It seems the Canon Optura 300 is also native 16:9 capable.

I beleive the JVC HD10 has near-native 16:9 in HDV, and that's interesting because you will have square pixels, not anamorphic... and it probably does anamorphic DV with native-like resolution. It's sensor is similar in size and resolution to that found in the PDX10 (although there is only one of them, not three).
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Old March 16th, 2004, 11:53 PM   #4
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The Pana GS100 and Canon Optura 300 and Xi are 3 others.
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Old March 17th, 2004, 02:20 AM   #5
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Thank you guys!

So let's see.. "2" pro cams (Sony 500 series, and the Pana SDX900P"

And 4 consumer? (6 if you count the TRVs..) I don't know the Canon ones or the Pana GS100.. ( not pro ?)

Does the SONYs TRV33 and 38 really have 16:9 chips?
I find it hard to believe..

Thanks.
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Old March 17th, 2004, 02:50 AM   #6
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Yes. The pixels are there.
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Old March 17th, 2004, 08:00 AM   #7
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Yes the Sony TRV38 has a 16:9 chip.

I know because I have one. I also believe the TRV70 & 80 also have this 16:9 chip
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Old March 17th, 2004, 09:22 AM   #8
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Actually they're not 16:9 chips. That is, the CCD aspect ratio is still 4:3. However these are megapixel camcorders. For video they're using a chunk of the CCD out of the middle. There's enough resolution to get a full-res16:9 portion out of the center of the CCD, almost edge to edge. Then for still photos, it uses the entire 4:3 array of the whole chip.

For example this is how the Canon Optura 300 and Optura Xi work. Both of them are two-megapixels camcorders. For still images, the processor uses the entire CCD array at 1632 x 1224 pixels (in the CCD's native aspect ratio of 4:3). Standard video comes from a 1280 x 960 chunk out of the middle of the array, which is then downconverted to 720 x 480 to produce DV. Then for widescreen video, a wider slice of the CCD is used, at 1632 x 918 pixels, or in other words full-resolution 16:9.

I'm using the Canons for example but I'm pretty sure this is how the single-chip Sonys do it too. There's a pretty good explanation of the process at http://www.maxent.org/video/16x9.html.

For the "heavy iron" professional camcorders, the Sony DSR-500 has been mentioned. The Panasonic AJ-D610 is another as well as the JVC GY-D700. All have 2/3rd-inch native 16:9 CCD blocks. Hope this helps,
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Old March 17th, 2004, 09:40 AM   #9
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> There's enough resolution to get a full-res16:9 portion
> out of the center of the CCD, almost edge to edge.

The PDX10 does a similar thing and has 3 CCD's. It's the least expensive 3CCD 16:9 camera you can buy as far as I know and it has very a pleasing image. It's low light performance is not very good and it can suffer from more smear than the PD150/170 when there is too much contrast, so you might prefer this cam if you will be working in controlled environments, not run-and-gun kind of work. If you don't need pro audio the new Canons might be a good bet, less expensive, better low light, less vertical smear and it seems some form of progressive scan too!
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Old March 17th, 2004, 10:04 AM   #10
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How does the single CCD performance of the Xi compare to the 3CCD performance of the PDX10?

I know the generalities of 1 CCD v. 3 CCD, but since the Canon uses the new DigiQ filter, I'm wondering if it narrows the gap.
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Old March 17th, 2004, 10:55 AM   #11
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The Canon Optura Xi and 300 incoporate an RGB (primary) color filter. This is highly superior to the vast majority of other single-chip DV camcorders which use a CMY (complimentary) color filter. Primary color filters are quite rare in single-chip camcorders and they render an image which is very close to the three-chip look. I would put the Optura Xi and 300 in the same boat as the very low priced sub-$1500 Panasonic 3-chippers, and nearly in the ballpark of the Sony $2000 three-chippers. But that's just my opinion; I see a lot of Optura video. Canon's proprietary image processing technology, Digic DV, has a lot to do with it as well but the real "secret weapon" involved here is the rare RGB color filter (rare in the video world, common in the digicam world). Hope this helps,
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Old March 17th, 2004, 08:37 PM   #12
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Pana DV953 does it
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Old March 17th, 2004, 10:40 PM   #13
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Quote:
Pana DV953 does it
The Panasonic DV953 unfortunately does not widen the angle of view while in 16:9 mode and suffers resolution loss due to vertical zoom.

Quote:
Does the SONYs TRV33 and 38 really have 16:9 chips?
I find it hard to believe..
Interesting point on the TRV33, it actually widens the angle of view in 16:9 mode at full wide but as you zoom it goes back to the width of its original 4:3 frame (how bizarre).

The list of single CCD cams with quality 16:9 modes is very long now and I see a good many missing from those already mentioned.

Just remember that some cams (like the Optura 300) cannot use image stabilization while in 16:9 mode. Cams with optical image stabilization (PDX10, GS100, Xi) do not have this problem. Some have also noted that Sony's image stabilization (non-ois) still functions in 16:9 mode but this is because Sony employs electronic sensors instead of "borrowing CCD pixels" to compensate for motion.

Below is an illustration of how the PDX10 achieves its remarkable 16:9 mode with no resolution loss.

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-...DX10.jpg<br />
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Old March 17th, 2004, 10:48 PM   #14
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Quote:
How does the single CCD performance of the Xi compare to the 3CCD performance of the PDX10?
I've owned both of these cams and while some may argue that the $2000 PDX10 isn't twice the cam as the $1000 Xi I can easily say that the PDX10 takes home the gold. I rank the PDX10 as the best sub $5k 16:9 cam currently in production.

Here are some frame grabs from my past PDX10. They are still anamrophically squeezed at 720x480 but just unsquish them to 853x480 and you'll be good to go (yes I'm lazy).

http://www.villagephotos.com/pubbrow...elected=441334

Here is a 16:9 frame grab from my current GS100. The unique look is due to its "Pro Cinema" mode

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2002-...ProCinema1.jpg
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Old March 17th, 2004, 11:32 PM   #15
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What does the Pro Cinema mode do?
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