Could anyone with a TBC and/or proc amp post some test shots for me? at DVinfo.net

Aaron Koolen · May 27th, 2004, 04:20 AM

Hi all. I've posted Here regarding different tape brands as I just bought a basic SVHS VCR to use to do dubs of my Dv footage and am not impressed. If you look at that link above I've place a couple of demo shots of stuff I've written and recaptured.

I have heard talk of TBC's and Proc Amps but would like to see some results of them in action if anyone could spare the time. I dub from DV->ADVC100->SVIDEO IN -> VHS (Yes VHS, not SVHS) so this workflow would be appreciated if you can duplicate.

I'm willing to spend a few hundred US$ to improve the dubs, but not multiple $1000's. So am after a best bang for buck solution.

Cheers
Aaron

Ed Smith · May 27th, 2004, 05:08 AM

Aaron I could be mistaken but going though the s-video on to a standard VHS tape will not increase quality on the VHS tape, after all you are still only using 250 lines.

If I was you I would dump down to S-VHS via the S-video then you will get an increase in picture quality, to about 350lines (I think?)

But as always you will loose quality from DV to VHS and even to S-VHS.

Do you have anything else connected to the input of the VCR? What model is the VCR?

Cheers,

Aaron Koolen · May 27th, 2004, 05:38 AM

Hi Ed. Yeah I know I'll still be in crappy VHS in the end, I am just use SVideo in to keep the signal as good as possible before being converted rather than sending composite across the wire tot he VHS. Might make little difference, I'll do some tests of that soon.

The VCR I have is the JVC HR-S6960AA. It's a PAL model as I'm in New Zealand and one of te only SVHS videos that you can get here. I know it's probably not top of the line, I'd just hvea expected better than what I got.

While I understand resolution will be lost, the main concern I have with dubs is that fact that there is lots of noise added, vertical lones don't come out vertical anymore etc.

Thanks
Aaron

Ed Smith · May 27th, 2004, 06:05 AM

OK...

Have you tried going straight into the S-VHS recorder from your DV camera (by-passing the ADVC100) by s-video? If so, do you still get the same results?

When dumping to a normal VHS VCR do you still get these problems?

I take it nothing else is connected to the inputs of the VCR?

As you say Proc Amps and TBC will probably help reduce the noise and harsh reds you get. But then again these are pretty common issues with 'consumer level' VTRs I believe.

All the best,

Aaron Koolen · May 27th, 2004, 06:15 AM

I actually get worse from miniDv (That is, I went out from Comp through firewire into ADVC out firewire into XM2 (So no loss at this point) then out XM2 SVideo to VCR. ADVC does better job from what I can tell.

It could very well be just one of those things. Have you looked at my pics to see the results I'm getting? They might be normal.

Cheers
Aaron

Ron Evans · May 27th, 2004, 06:48 AM

Why are you using the ADVC? What camcorder are you using? NOt to disappoint you too much but I have both JVC SVHS and Panasonic VHS and the Panasonic( with Dynamorphous heads) with composit input produces a much better picture than the JVC with any input!! TRy recording to a tape from the JVC tuner. IF you get the same picture problems it is the VCR and you will not improve. TBC's will stabalize the video and stop the tearing effect, they normally have colour and brightnes /constrast cocntrols as well. Proc Amps are just fancy colour /contrast/breightness controls and will not stabalize picture.
Most modern camcorders have a TBC on the analogue outputs as part of the digital to analogue converter so the composite or Y/C output from the camcorder should already be stabalized. The quality of these converters varies but not much. My DHR1000 Sony deck does produce a better output than the camcorders for example.
I have found that the Panasonic Dynamorphous head VCR's with composite in produce the best copy short of a full duplication house.

By the way I have searched your posts but cannot see any reference to sample clips.

Ron Evans

Aaron Koolen · May 27th, 2004, 07:11 AM

Hi Ron. Thanks for the heads up on the Panasonic. I was under the impression that going SVideo in would help a little bit and did not think that there would be much difference between recorders other than that, especially at the consumer level. It's a shame as that doesn't give me much to stand on to return the video and try a panasonic.

I went looking for the clips and couldn't find them myself....Strange. Here are the links anyway.

This spot will take you to a diretory with 4 clips. 1 DV, 2 VHS (different tape brands) and one SVHS oututput.

I'm using the ADVC for NLE to VHS and vice versa. I could use my camera, for sure, but I don't like having to pull it out to convert stuff or write off VHS dubs. I prefer having the ADVC setup all the time ready to go.

Cheers
Aaron

Aaron Koolen · May 27th, 2004, 07:57 AM

I hooked the JVC upto my Sky Digital decoder and recorded some footage. While not as good as the original it was still OK. Maybe I'd have liked better, but maybe I can't expect it.

I might have to just bite the bullet as traking down a good panasonic here in NZ might be tricky.

Cheers
Aaron

Rob Lohman · May 28th, 2004, 04:29 AM

Looking at those shots I can't see how you could get it much
better. Looks pretty decent for a VHS copy to me.

It just ain't DVD or DV!

Ron Evans · May 28th, 2004, 06:18 AM

I agree with Rob. There is some colour shift to the left that you may be able to correct with a TBC but VHS is poor anyway and colour shift loss of colour resolution is par for the course. The colour shift could be a cable problem try a better cable that is as short as possible. Also for your own education just play back in several VCR's /TV's and you will see the colour shift differently in all of them!!!!!! Move to DVD as quick as possible, blank DVD's are cheaper than VHS tapes here in Canada.

Ron Evans

Aaron Koolen · May 28th, 2004, 05:02 PM

Well thanks guys - sort of ;) I may just have to put up with it and wait until I can get some sort of higher end dup system working. Unfortunately I deal with people who don't have DVD's so VHS is probably still around for a while ;)

Cheers
Aaron

Ron Evans · May 29th, 2004, 08:44 AM

See if you can try one of the JVC integrated DV/VHS machines to make a VHS. YOu will have to use a mini DV tape or DV from your computer, but if your programs are less than one hour you will be OK. The other is to look at an integrated Sony that will take the large DV tapes. If you are only making a small number, one at a time, these options may give the best transfer since they don't use external cables and all the electronics to drive them.

Ron Evans

Mike Rehmus · May 29th, 2004, 05:07 PM

The interesting bit is that people that get my VHS dubs like them a lot. I think they aren't very good, regardless of whether I record them on my Sony SLV-R1000 S-VHS deck or a $70 Costco Panasonic. So I have 6 Panasonics hooked up to a Sign Video DA with the signal from the s-Video output of my Canopus DVRex sent through a Studio 1 proc amp.

Customers are not very picky at all and they seem to not expect that we will be able to turn out VHS dupes that match the hollywood contact-printed tapes.

I'm doing more DVDs now than VHS anyway.

Ron Evans · May 30th, 2004, 08:40 AM

I too have a similar settup to Mike. Studio One Proc amp to Studio One DA to 3 Panasonic VHS decks. I also have DPS TBC 1V that I can put in the chain if the Studio One PRoc amp can't correct enough and that is used in tead of the Proc amp for copying old VHS or Hi8 so that the colour can be placed back over the image!!!. I too am not too concerned now about VHS quality as most people prefer DVD which is so much better.

Ron Evans

May 27th, 2004, 04:20 AM	#1
Aaron Koolen Trustee Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Auckland, New Zealand Posts: 1,727	Could anyone with a TBC and/or proc amp post some test shots for me? Hi all. I've posted Here regarding different tape brands as I just bought a basic SVHS VCR to use to do dubs of my Dv footage and am not impressed. If you look at that link above I've place a couple of demo shots of stuff I've written and recaptured. I have heard talk of TBC's and Proc Amps but would like to see some results of them in action if anyone could spare the time. I dub from DV->ADVC100->SVIDEO IN -> VHS (Yes VHS, not SVHS) so this workflow would be appreciated if you can duplicate. I'm willing to spend a few hundred US$ to improve the dubs, but not multiple $1000's. So am after a best bang for buck solution. Cheers Aaron __________________ My Website Meat Free Media

May 27th, 2004, 05:08 AM	#2
Ed Smith Wrangler Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Hampshire, England Posts: 1,545	Aaron I could be mistaken but going though the s-video on to a standard VHS tape will not increase quality on the VHS tape, after all you are still only using 250 lines. If I was you I would dump down to S-VHS via the S-video then you will get an increase in picture quality, to about 350lines (I think?) But as always you will loose quality from DV to VHS and even to S-VHS. Do you have anything else connected to the input of the VCR? What model is the VCR? Cheers, __________________ Ed Smith Hampshire, UK Good things come to those who wait My Skiing web www.Frostytour.co.uk For quick answers Search dvinfo.net \| The best in the business: dvinfo.net Sponsors

May 27th, 2004, 05:38 AM	#3
Aaron Koolen Trustee Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Auckland, New Zealand Posts: 1,727	Hi Ed. Yeah I know I'll still be in crappy VHS in the end, I am just use SVideo in to keep the signal as good as possible before being converted rather than sending composite across the wire tot he VHS. Might make little difference, I'll do some tests of that soon. The VCR I have is the JVC HR-S6960AA. It's a PAL model as I'm in New Zealand and one of te only SVHS videos that you can get here. I know it's probably not top of the line, I'd just hvea expected better than what I got. While I understand resolution will be lost, the main concern I have with dubs is that fact that there is lots of noise added, vertical lones don't come out vertical anymore etc. Thanks Aaron __________________ My Website Meat Free Media

May 27th, 2004, 06:05 AM	#4
Ed Smith Wrangler Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Hampshire, England Posts: 1,545	OK... Have you tried going straight into the S-VHS recorder from your DV camera (by-passing the ADVC100) by s-video? If so, do you still get the same results? When dumping to a normal VHS VCR do you still get these problems? I take it nothing else is connected to the inputs of the VCR? As you say Proc Amps and TBC will probably help reduce the noise and harsh reds you get. But then again these are pretty common issues with 'consumer level' VTRs I believe. All the best, __________________ Ed Smith Hampshire, UK Good things come to those who wait My Skiing web www.Frostytour.co.uk For quick answers Search dvinfo.net \| The best in the business: dvinfo.net Sponsors

May 27th, 2004, 06:15 AM	#5
Aaron Koolen Trustee Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Auckland, New Zealand Posts: 1,727	I actually get worse from miniDv (That is, I went out from Comp through firewire into ADVC out firewire into XM2 (So no loss at this point) then out XM2 SVideo to VCR. ADVC does better job from what I can tell. It could very well be just one of those things. Have you looked at my pics to see the results I'm getting? They might be normal. Cheers Aaron __________________ My Website Meat Free Media

May 27th, 2004, 06:48 AM	#6
Ron Evans Inner Circle Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada Posts: 4,220	Why are you using the ADVC? What camcorder are you using? NOt to disappoint you too much but I have both JVC SVHS and Panasonic VHS and the Panasonic( with Dynamorphous heads) with composit input produces a much better picture than the JVC with any input!! TRy recording to a tape from the JVC tuner. IF you get the same picture problems it is the VCR and you will not improve. TBC's will stabalize the video and stop the tearing effect, they normally have colour and brightnes /constrast cocntrols as well. Proc Amps are just fancy colour /contrast/breightness controls and will not stabalize picture. Most modern camcorders have a TBC on the analogue outputs as part of the digital to analogue converter so the composite or Y/C output from the camcorder should already be stabalized. The quality of these converters varies but not much. My DHR1000 Sony deck does produce a better output than the camcorders for example. I have found that the Panasonic Dynamorphous head VCR's with composite in produce the best copy short of a full duplication house. By the way I have searched your posts but cannot see any reference to sample clips. Ron Evans

May 27th, 2004, 07:11 AM	#7
Aaron Koolen Trustee Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Auckland, New Zealand Posts: 1,727	Hi Ron. Thanks for the heads up on the Panasonic. I was under the impression that going SVideo in would help a little bit and did not think that there would be much difference between recorders other than that, especially at the consumer level. It's a shame as that doesn't give me much to stand on to return the video and try a panasonic. I went looking for the clips and couldn't find them myself....Strange. Here are the links anyway. This spot will take you to a diretory with 4 clips. 1 DV, 2 VHS (different tape brands) and one SVHS oututput. I'm using the ADVC for NLE to VHS and vice versa. I could use my camera, for sure, but I don't like having to pull it out to convert stuff or write off VHS dubs. I prefer having the ADVC setup all the time ready to go. Cheers Aaron __________________ My Website Meat Free Media

May 27th, 2004, 07:57 AM	#8
Aaron Koolen Trustee Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Auckland, New Zealand Posts: 1,727	I hooked the JVC upto my Sky Digital decoder and recorded some footage. While not as good as the original it was still OK. Maybe I'd have liked better, but maybe I can't expect it. I might have to just bite the bullet as traking down a good panasonic here in NZ might be tricky. Cheers Aaron __________________ My Website Meat Free Media

May 28th, 2004, 04:29 AM	#9
Rob Lohman RED Code Chef Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Holland Posts: 12,514	Looking at those shots I can't see how you could get it much better. Looks pretty decent for a VHS copy to me. It just ain't DVD or DV! __________________ Rob Lohman, visuar@iname.com DV Info Wrangler & RED Code Chef Join the DV Challenge \| Lady X Search DVinfo.net for quick answers \| Buy from the best: DVinfo.net sponsors

May 28th, 2004, 06:18 AM	#10
Ron Evans Inner Circle Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada Posts: 4,220	I agree with Rob. There is some colour shift to the left that you may be able to correct with a TBC but VHS is poor anyway and colour shift loss of colour resolution is par for the course. The colour shift could be a cable problem try a better cable that is as short as possible. Also for your own education just play back in several VCR's /TV's and you will see the colour shift differently in all of them!!!!!! Move to DVD as quick as possible, blank DVD's are cheaper than VHS tapes here in Canada. Ron Evans

May 28th, 2004, 05:02 PM	#11
Aaron Koolen Trustee Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Auckland, New Zealand Posts: 1,727	Well thanks guys - sort of ;) I may just have to put up with it and wait until I can get some sort of higher end dup system working. Unfortunately I deal with people who don't have DVD's so VHS is probably still around for a while ;) Cheers Aaron __________________ My Website Meat Free Media

May 29th, 2004, 08:44 AM	#12
Ron Evans Inner Circle Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada Posts: 4,220	See if you can try one of the JVC integrated DV/VHS machines to make a VHS. YOu will have to use a mini DV tape or DV from your computer, but if your programs are less than one hour you will be OK. The other is to look at an integrated Sony that will take the large DV tapes. If you are only making a small number, one at a time, these options may give the best transfer since they don't use external cables and all the electronics to drive them. Ron Evans

May 29th, 2004, 05:07 PM	#13
Mike Rehmus Wrangler Join Date: May 2002 Location: Vallejo, California Posts: 4,049	The interesting bit is that people that get my VHS dubs like them a lot. I think they aren't very good, regardless of whether I record them on my Sony SLV-R1000 S-VHS deck or a $70 Costco Panasonic. So I have 6 Panasonics hooked up to a Sign Video DA with the signal from the s-Video output of my Canopus DVRex sent through a Studio 1 proc amp. Customers are not very picky at all and they seem to not expect that we will be able to turn out VHS dupes that match the hollywood contact-printed tapes. I'm doing more DVDs now than VHS anyway. __________________ Mike Rehmus Hey, I can see the carrot at the end of the tunnel!

May 30th, 2004, 08:40 AM	#14
Ron Evans Inner Circle Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada Posts: 4,220	I too have a similar settup to Mike. Studio One Proc amp to Studio One DA to 3 Panasonic VHS decks. I also have DPS TBC 1V that I can put in the chain if the Studio One PRoc amp can't correct enough and that is used in tead of the Proc amp for copying old VHS or Hi8 so that the colour can be placed back over the image!!!. I too am not too concerned now about VHS quality as most people prefer DVD which is so much better. Ron Evans