Why doesn't any other cam manufacturer do XL2 style cams? at DVinfo.net

Go Back   DV Info Net > The Tools of DV and HD Production > Open DV Discussion

Open DV Discussion
For topics which don't fit into any of the other categories.


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old January 23rd, 2005, 08:23 PM   #1
Trustee
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
Posts: 1,727
Why doesn't any other cam manufacturer do XL2 style cams?

This has always struck me as weird that no manufacturer has made some interchangeable lens system camera within that market price range? Or even a camera with the styling of the Xl2, lens and pseudo shoulder mount. I mean, what if Panasonic made a DVX100 that had that shoulder mount look etc.. I don't mean a full rig like the DVC200 but just the XL1s/Xl2 style. I'm shure that could only help. Especially filmmakers and documentarians, no?

Anyone have any insight into this?

Aaron
__________________
My Website
Meat Free Media
Aaron Koolen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 23rd, 2005, 09:30 PM   #2
Major Player
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: stately Eldora Road
Posts: 386
I've thought the same thing.

I expect there's too much fear in the marketing & accounting departments of the various camcorder makers. I remember when Super 8 (& Single-8) cameras began to get "serious" in design & capabilities---that took quite a while ... well, maybe 10 years after the gauge's intro in 1965. A couple companies broke out their system designs in imitation of 16mm, and some lesser makers brought out "consumer" body-types with interchangeable lenses.

I don't know much about camera OEMing, but I'd guess most companies--bottom-line-oriented as they must be--dislike the propects of tooling up an interchangeable lens system, e.g., and competing in the marketing space Canon has defined & refined. Their bread & butter's in lower-end stuff.

I'd be just as happy to see someone market a line of alternative lenses (or even just a lens!) for the XL2 ... seems like the R&D on a basic set of primes wouldn't necessarily ruin one of the still-lens makers.

I mean, I love my Canon 14x manual zoom, but I drool over those rectilinear ultra-wides that stills guys get to shoot with.

JS
John Sandel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 23rd, 2005, 10:04 PM   #3
Major Player
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Plano, TX
Posts: 607
Canon makes lenses not cameras (at least not in the same sense). Panasonic and Sony make PRO cameras and they make cameras like you are describing (changeable lenses that is).
What do you think would happen if Sony and Panasonic made similar cameras to the XL series for under $5K? It would probably eat into the sales of their bigger more professional and more expensive cameras. The PD-170, even without it's interchangeable lens has found itself used in the field with just about every broadcast network on the planet. Now if these same networks, who like it because it is small and light and had a decent picture (compared to the 300's and 500's) could buy an XL type Sony DVCAM or Panasonic DVCPRO for around $5K or so, why would they need to spend $15K-$30K+?

Besides, a 1/3" chip isn't really something most professionals go crazy over. It's not like they sit at home wishing they could find a low quality (compared to a 2/3") camera to stick a $20K+ lens on.
Rhett Allen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 23rd, 2005, 10:14 PM   #4
Trustee
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
Posts: 1,727
But Rhett, those cheaper camers in the PD170 range, are still, as you allude to with the chip size, inferior than the 15K+ systems (Not just in image, but feature). So yeah, pro's will still buy the big ones but wouldn't us lesser mortals be rapt with a DVX100 that looked like the XL2?


Aaron
__________________
My Website
Meat Free Media
Aaron Koolen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 23rd, 2005, 10:49 PM   #5
Major Player
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Plano, TX
Posts: 607
Oh, don't get me wrong, I would love to see it happen! Imagine something in the DVX or PD size and form factor with full manual control and interchangeable lenses and maybe even 1/2" 16:9 chips! Drooool! Canon can get away with more innovation in this particular field because they don't have a Pro Line to cannibalize. (however if Sony and Panny don't wake up soon they may miss the whole niche being created here)
With all the competition in media these days, everyone's trying to cut costs and if they could get closer to the same features and quality with a cheaper unit, they would buy it instead. (maybe not everyone, but many would)
For example, look at DV. It was never really intended as a "PRO" format. It was designed as a "consumer" format, but many pros quickly adopted it. The same thing looks to be happening with HDV.
Rhett Allen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 24th, 2005, 02:49 AM   #6
Trustee
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Malvern UK
Posts: 1,931
If the same thing is happening with HDV it's mainly because there is no middle ground. The next jump up is to the 50k HDCAM and that's without the lens!

I really feel HDV is being forced upon people at the moment and I don't like it one little bit.
Simon Wyndham is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 24th, 2005, 10:18 AM   #7
Major Player
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: NYC
Posts: 649
I agree with Simon. As consumers, we can refuse to consume a bad format. We don't have to accept what they THINK we want or need.
__________________
Mark Sasahara
Director of Photography
Mark Sasahara is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 24th, 2005, 10:58 AM   #8
Major Player
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Ridgefield Park, New Jersey, USA
Posts: 572
But we will, because HDV "looks" better than DV(25) even if it is more compressed, harder to edit, etc..., etc.... With all the "solutions" being built around the format, it seems like it may be here to stay.

It's up to Panny to come out with something better, that's in a similar price range.
Jesse Bekas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 24th, 2005, 11:03 AM   #9
Obstreperous Rex
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: San Marcos, TX
Posts: 26,900
Images: 513
Rumors are flying thick about Panasonic introducing a sub-$10K camera in their 100 megabit DVCPro HD format. This is going to be a very interesting year, I think.
__________________
CH

Search DV Info Net | DV Info Net Sponsors | A Decade (+5) of DVi | ...Tuesday is Soylent Green Day!
Chris Hurd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 24th, 2005, 11:06 AM   #10
Major Player
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: stately Eldora Road
Posts: 386
Rhett said ...

"Canon makes [high-end] lenses [but] not cameras ... Panasonic and Sony make PRO cameras and they make [lower-end] cameras ..."

Yeah, that's what I meant. It explains the economic decisions. (Sorry I edited you.)

I was surfing for off-brand stills lenses the other day & came across Phoenix's site. Seems an outfit like that could cook (no pun) up a prime or two for the XL2.

JS
John Sandel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 24th, 2005, 11:21 AM   #11
Major Player
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Ridgefield Park, New Jersey, USA
Posts: 572
<<<-- Originally posted by Chris Hurd : Rumors are flying thick about Panasonic introducing a sub-$10K camera in their 100 megabit DVCPro HD format. This is going to be a very interesting year, I think. -->>>

Wow!..really?! I guess they'd hold back some features, but that format for that price range is just awesome.
Jesse Bekas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 24th, 2005, 11:24 AM   #12
Inner Circle
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: San Mateo, CA
Posts: 3,840
I think it might be interesting, in the business model sense, to look at Avid and FCP as an example of "Canabalizing" a high-end market.

For years, AVID was standard for high end nle's. (Well, it still is, but that's another thread). Along comes APPLE, who DOESN'T manufacture hardware and software for high end suites, but starts offering some of the features that the high end avid suites offer. (Yes, for brevity's sake, I'm leaving out the development of Premier and other NLE's... but the story is the same.)

Avid chose to ignore the lower, "prosumer" market, and low and behold, FCP starts making inroads at the indy level, and the boutique production houses and ad agencies. Finally, Avid jumps on board with XpressDV and the race is on. Anyone who used the professional level Avids, knew at once that the low end line was EXACTLY like the high-end line, but had the feature sets locked away. (Its even possible to buy cracked versions of the software, but they are often buggy and full of virus...not to mention illegal- I don't advocate it)

Why would Avid hesitate to unlock the features alread in the programs? Because Avid didn't want to canabalize or piss-off those high end customers and profit margins.

With every upgrade of FCP, Avid was forced to 'unlock' more features on their Prosumer line in order to compete. The difference seperating the high end systems from the low end now, is pretty thin. In fact, its pretty much distinguised by hardware accelerators.

The lesson here, I think, is that sooner or later the Camera manufacturers will be forced into blurring the feature sets on Prosumer and Professional cameras. Will it dissappear? Not likely, but I think, in the end, the differences will be rayzor thin. Probably as small as a different size of ccd's and a different codec.
Richard Alvarez is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 24th, 2005, 12:29 PM   #13
Wrangler
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: DFW area, TX
Posts: 6,108
Images: 1
<<<-- Originally posted by Chris Hurd : Rumors are flying thick about Panasonic introducing a sub-$10K camera in their 100 megabit DVCPro HD format. This is going to be a very interesting year, I think. -->>>

Yeah Chris. I attended a local FCP meeting with an associate recently. The moderator, who does a lot of work in broadcast was explaining HDV (he had his new FX1 with him) and all the different variants of HD.

To make a long story short, he said there are rumors of an 'HDV2' format being introduced at NAB this year that bumps the speed up to 50mbs. As you stated, an interesting year indeed.

I think this may be the year that HD achieves critical mass in the US. Why, well consider that Wal-Mart has hi-def sets in their stores now. Dish Network has a hi-def PVR receiver that has the OTA digital tuner built in. Comcast cable offers hi-def PVR digital packages now. There is now a lot of programming being acquired with HD cams including many of the prime time shows. And the list goes on.

It's gonna be a fun ride!

=gb=
Greg Boston is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 24th, 2005, 03:39 PM   #14
Trustee
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Malvern UK
Posts: 1,931
Critical mass? Only 7% of households in the US have HD sets.

The features of pro and consumer cameras will never be blurred. All full size cameras have similar control setups/ Once you can use one you can generally use another because all the important controls are in the same place. But there is another side effect. The size of the camera body means much more in the way of complex electronics that lead to a better picture can be incorporated, along with seperate boards for different functions, as opposed to one board that does everything in the smaller cameras.

Pro cameras will always be pro cameras, consumer cameras will always be consumer cameras.
Simon Wyndham is offline   Reply
Reply

DV Info Net refers all where-to-buy and where-to-rent questions exclusively to these trusted full line dealers and rental houses...

Professional Video
(800) 833-4801
Portland, OR

B&H Photo Video
(866) 521-7381
New York, NY

Z.G.C.
(973) 335-4460
Mountain Lakes, NJ

Abel Cine Tech
(888) 700-4416
N.Y. NY & L.A. CA

Precision Camera
(800) 677-1023
Austin, TX

DV Info Net also encourages you to support local businesses and buy from an authorized dealer in your neighborhood.
  You are here: DV Info Net > The Tools of DV and HD Production > Open DV Discussion

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

 



Google
 

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 12:25 PM.


DV Info Net -- Real Names, Real People, Real Info!
1998-2017 The Digital Video Information Network