Shooting Boxing at DVinfo.net

Go Back   DV Info Net > The Tools of DV and HD Production > Open DV Discussion

Open DV Discussion
For topics which don't fit into any of the other categories.


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old October 13th, 2009, 05:22 AM   #1
New Boot
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: London
Posts: 12
Shooting Boxing

Hi guys,

I'm doing a bit of shooting this weekend for my local Muay Thai (Thai Boxing) club. Have two cameras already and hopefully will have a third on the night (all with individual operators). I was hoping that someone might have experience shooting boxing and be able to give some pointers, like where to position the cameras, what to look out for, frame rates/focus issues, ect. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks very much,
James.
James McColgan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 13th, 2009, 07:52 AM   #2
Trustee
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: North Conway, NH
Posts: 1,745
Your choices will be determined largely by the venue. The volume of lighting, or lack thereof may minimize shutter speed options. Camera locations may be limited too so you'll have to work within those constraints.

I think you'll want to start shooting at 1/50 because it will look similar to what people see with the naked eye. There may be stylistic reasons to shoot faster, but that's a personal preference. Whatever you do, set both cameras to the same shutter speed.

I'd place the two cameras at least 45 degrees to about 65 degrees opposite each other to give two significantly different perspectives. I can't really say why you shouldn't go wider except that I think it would look funny with only two cameras. If the option presents itself, place one camera low and another high. Again, this offers different perspectives.

In the end, what matters is what looks good to you. If you are a fan of the sport, you'll know what you want to see. If you can, get there very early and try some different placements. It will help you make good decisions.

BTW... I don't shoot boxing but I have shot a lot of motorsport. Despite the obvious differences, the goal common to both is to capture the action. Focus on that and you shouldn't go far wrong.
Tripp Woelfel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 13th, 2009, 12:36 PM   #3
Regular Crew
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: San Jose, CA,, USA
Posts: 144
I'd have the two cameras shooting roughly perpendicular to each other, so that if one camera is blocked by a boxer moving around, the other should capture it.
Chris McMahon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 13th, 2009, 01:00 PM   #4
Inner Circle
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Vancouver, British Columbia (formerly Winnipeg, Manitoba) Canada
Posts: 4,087
As someone who has operated handheld camera as well as directed and switched live WWF/WWE wrestling inhouse (not for broadcast) at an arena, let me offer the following:

Whether or not you have the third camera makes ALL the difference in the world in my humble opinion. Let's first assume you do.
-I'd place two cameras on tripods only a couple of feet apart (5 to 10 feet SHOULD make all the difference in the world)
-One camera would be tasked with "context"; head to toe framing so that one can see all the motion leading into and out of striking.
-The second camera would be tasked with more intimate framing; try to stay on torso for strikes and to watch the fighters faces.
-The third camera would be handheld at ringside; this operator MUST assume they are always live and move back and forth with the action to get the gorgeous shots that can only be achieved by "being there". They also need to be careful not to block the shots of the hard cameras and the view of the spectators. Just like fighting, this position is get-in/get-out, always kinetic. I LOVED shooting this position.

If you only have two cameras, I'd be torn as to two hard cameras tasked as above or have one hard camera shoot a BIT tighter (a hybrid of the first two above) and have a ringside camera shoot a hybrid of the the latter two above.

Your strongest contextual shooter gets the handheld, next strongest gets what I will call the ISO camera for the tight work and the "wide" shot can be manned by a monkey, although it will benefit you if this camera is operated by a competent team player who doesn't keep zooming in because he's bored shooting wide shots. Don't laugh - this is the single biggest issue I have with camera ops: if I give you a task, I EXPECT you to give me what I asked for, not what you thought looked cool. I already have someone else giving me that.
__________________
Shaun C. Roemich Road Dog Media - Vancouver, BC - Videographer - Webcaster
www.roaddogmedia.ca Blog: http://roaddogmedia.wordpress.com/
Shaun Roemich is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 14th, 2009, 07:28 PM   #5
New Boot
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: London
Posts: 12
Thanks for all the help lads. that was my first post as i'm new to the site, great to see that people here are up for sharing their wisdom. i've gotten my hands on a sony z1 so we've the three cameras now. Gonna try a setup like Shaun Roemich suggests.

thanks again,

James.
James McColgan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 14th, 2009, 10:02 PM   #6
Regular Crew
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: SF Bay Area, CA, USA
Posts: 78
I'm surprised that no one explicitly recommended overcranking (if y'all did, apologies). Shooting at 60i or 60p would let you play the footage back normally, or to slow it down for either impact or cool time-ramping effects, depending on the style you're shooting in. Knowing nothing about the style you want to engender, thought I'd throw that out, esp. since you have a small arsenal of filming tools for this event! Good luck!
__________________
designer of media for eyes and ears
sound design and field recording at http://www.noisejockey.net/blog
Nathan Moody is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 14th, 2009, 10:19 PM   #7
Inner Circle
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Honolulu, HI
Posts: 2,053
I did some boxing coverage and Shaun pretty much nailed it.

As for overcranking -- good idea. But get a fourth camera to do that. Otherwise you sacrifice one of the primary cameras. Unless you have one shooting at 60 fps all the time and you convert the frame rate to match the others in post.
__________________
Dean Sensui
Exec Producer, Hawaii Goes Fishing
Dean Sensui is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 15th, 2009, 06:04 AM   #8
New Boot
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: London
Posts: 12
Ok guys, i'm very interested in gettin some nice slo-mo in the edit. i have only the three cameras though and i dont want to set one specifically for this purpose. So the footage will have to be slowed in down in post.

shooting on a sony z1, canon xl h1 and sony pd150. The z1 will be picking up the wider shots so the slow motion will be coming from the other two cameras with tighter shots.

in pal-land so what should i be shooting at? from readin other threads i think i'll be shooting on 50i but i'm comfused about the shutter speed. should i use 1/120? if so should i use this on all the cameras? what will be the knock on effects of this action?

i'll be editing in Final Cut.

bit confused, never did this before.
thanks.

Last edited by James McColgan; October 15th, 2009 at 06:08 AM. Reason: forgot some info
James McColgan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 15th, 2009, 07:30 AM   #9
Trustee
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: North Conway, NH
Posts: 1,745
You'll want to shoot 50i. Slo-mo will benefit from faster shutter speeds. 1/120 or 1/250 are good but you may be limited by your light. If you can only do 1/50, you can still get good slo-mo. It just won't be as crisp.

You can shoot with all cameras at 1/120 but it will look different than 1/50. I personally like shooting sports at faster shutter speeds, but others don't. It's all a matter of creating the "look" that you like. I haven't watched American football on TV in years, but it was clear back then that at least some of the cameras were using faster shutter speeds. It made for some impressive slo-mo shots. I know of no down side to faster shutter speeds as long as you like the look it gives you.
Tripp Woelfel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 15th, 2009, 08:05 AM   #10
Inner Circle
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Vancouver, British Columbia (formerly Winnipeg, Manitoba) Canada
Posts: 4,087
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tripp Woelfel View Post
I know of no down side to faster shutter speeds as long as you like the look it gives you.
Only one - if you're lighting is anything ballasted (pretty much anything OTHER THAN TUNGSTEN), you'll have colour shift issues if you don't use a shutter speed that is a factor of the inverse of your power cycles - in PAL land, you'll need to use 1/50, 1/100, 1/150, 1/200, 1/250... or else you'll see your colour slowly shift from greenish tinge to purplish tinge.
__________________
Shaun C. Roemich Road Dog Media - Vancouver, BC - Videographer - Webcaster
www.roaddogmedia.ca Blog: http://roaddogmedia.wordpress.com/
Shaun Roemich is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 15th, 2009, 03:56 PM   #11
Inner Circle
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Woodinville, WA USA
Posts: 3,464
Something else to consider, unrelated to slomo: Your PD150 won't match the other two cams, even if you shoot in DV mode on the HDV cams. The 150's widescreen mode is horrible (only 360 lines) and will make you cry. Many threads and passionate argument on this over in the PD/VX forum, but at the very least you should experiment with this and see if you can tolerate how it looks.
Adam Gold is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 15th, 2009, 07:13 PM   #12
New Boot
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: London
Posts: 12
thanks for all the feedback.. i think i'll try shootin at 1/100 shutter speed. should be safe enough with a nice slo-mo i'm thinkin. thanks for the heads up about the pd150's aspect ratio aswell. from readin other threads i'm thinkin that it's probably better to shoot in 4:3 and convert later.
James McColgan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 15th, 2009, 09:45 PM   #13
Inner Circle
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Woodinville, WA USA
Posts: 3,464
You won't gain anything by doing that... it'll still be 360 lines. Whether you crop in the cam or in your NLE it's pretty much the same. Compared to the 1080 lines on the two HDV cams, even if you then downconvert, the difference will be shocking on a widescreen TV. Not too bad on an old 4:3 TV.

Edit: Ah, just noticed you were across the pond, so the exact numbers will vary, but the principle is the same: The PD fakes widescreen by simply cropping the top and bottom of your picture, so you lose 25% of the resolution and you can never get it back.

Unless you're planning on doing the whole project in DV 4:3.
Adam Gold is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 16th, 2009, 04:14 PM   #14
New Boot
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: London
Posts: 12
ok thanks adam. looks like that could be a problem alright then. no way i can get another camera to replace it at this stage so i'll just have to go with what i got. that'll probably mean not usin the pd footage in the edit. its a real shame cause i thought i had the setup covered but at least i'll know now for future shoots. i'm gonna shoot with it anyway just to see what i get, should be a good learnin experience if nothing else. thanks for the info.
James McColgan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 18th, 2009, 10:17 AM   #15
New Boot
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: London
Posts: 12
Did the shoot last night. It went really well, very happy with the footage. Big thanks to everyone who took the time to give advice.
James McColgan is offline   Reply
Reply

DV Info Net refers all where-to-buy and where-to-rent questions exclusively to these trusted full line dealers and rental houses...

Professional Video
(800) 833-4801
Portland, OR

B&H Photo Video
(866) 521-7381
New York, NY

Z.G.C.
(973) 335-4460
Mountain Lakes, NJ

Abel Cine Tech
(888) 700-4416
N.Y. NY & L.A. CA

Precision Camera
(800) 677-1023
Austin, TX

DV Info Net also encourages you to support local businesses and buy from an authorized dealer in your neighborhood.
  You are here: DV Info Net > The Tools of DV and HD Production > Open DV Discussion

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

 



Google
 

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 05:32 PM.


DV Info Net -- Real Names, Real People, Real Info!
1998-2017 The Digital Video Information Network