Pro SD camera vs Pro-sumer HD camera

[Chuck Fadely]

I have both DSR500 and XHA1. If you're delivering for the web or SD, the DSR wins hands-down due to the audio being so much better, and at the same SD resolution, the image is better, too. It's also better in low light. But once you go past 853x480, the XHA1 wins.

Batteries play a big part in the equation, too. One little 970 in the Canon lasts all day vs. hauling around 140 Hytrons and a charger....

But the audio difference is huge... it's the only reason I still use the DSR.

[David Morgan]

yes, I know about the size and weight. How long do you think the plastic cameras would last in the field? NOT VERY LONG. The first time an important event was missed because the plastic battery door or spring breaks, that will be the end of that experiment.
The emphasis nowadays is more about imagers and file formats than anything. Notice very little discussion about lens quality, build and durability. These parameters used to be important when purchasing a camera. However, we do live in a disposable society more than ever.

[Perrone Ford]

Originally Posted by David Morgan

yes, I know about the size and weight. How long do you think the plastic cameras would last in the field? NOT VERY LONG. The first time an important event was missed because the plastic battery door or spring breaks, that will be the end of that experiment.
The emphasis nowadays is more about imagers and file formats than anything. Notice very little discussion about lens quality, build and durability. These parameters used to be important when purchasing a camera. However, we do live in a disposable society more than ever.

I've owned a number of cameras at different levels, both still and video. And have never broken a single one of them in the field. If someone is prone to breaking gear, or treats their gear harshly, then you're right. A more durable camera is most welcome.

Our market is changing rapidly every 12-18 months. This is no longer a field where you can buy a $30k camera and expect it to be viable in 3-6 years. Even glass is like this now. We are quickly moving away from the 1/3" and 2/3" cameras. So those lenses will become boat anchors in short order.

Unlike you, I've heard PLENTY of talk about lens quality. But frankly, the common person participating here isn't buying a $20k 2/3" lens, or PL mount lens. Some are, but most are not. The truth of the matter is that the medium we are recording to is not capable of resolving the differences between decent glass and excellent glass. This isn't film. Yes, distortion and C.A. are readily seen. But for most people, spending half a year's salary on a lens to correct issues that their clients don't see isn't a good investment.

[Steve Kalle]

So you are saying that a tape camera is inherently more reliable than one with little to no moving parts (ie EX1/3)?

At least in the Chicago HD broadcast market, I can easily tell when a news channel has used an SD camera because it looks horrendous due to their up-sizing it.

As far as the EX1's reliability, these cameras can take a serious beating. I rented one a few months ago that had some serious cosmetic damage but still functioned flawlessly.

Something else to consider: getting an EX3 is a long-term investment whereas the DSR-400 is more a stop-gap.

[Perrone Ford]

Originally Posted by Steve Kalle

Something else to consider: getting an EX3 is a long-term investment whereas the DSR-400 is more a stop-gap.

With a 1/2" chip, even that is questionable. Maybe if you add a Nanoflash or KiPro to it. But someone would have to hand me an SD camera for nearly free for me to touch it. At this point, I wouldn't buy a 2/3" SD camera for over $500. And the ONLY reason I'd pay that much for one is for insurance for those clients that feel put off by seeing something like my EX1 or T2i on their shoot.

I deliver our in-house videos at 720p, I deliver my movies at 1080 or 720, I deliver for the web at 720. I bought the EX1 shortly after they were released and I've never even had it in an SD mode. HDV mode once, but never SD. I can downres to SD in-camera or outboard in real time if I really want that, all while writing HD to SxS. I've done it once at a conference when they wanted to piggyback my recording for the projector at a conference.

SD is all but dead in the US. Walk into Best Buy and see how many SD televisions you can buy.

[Shaun Roemich]

Originally Posted by Perrone Ford

SD is all but dead in the US. Walk into Best Buy and see how many SD televisions you can buy.

An unfair pronouncement: BROADCAST SD is FAR from dead, even if we can no longer buy SD only televisions.

[David Morgan]

Well Ok,......I'm going to casually slip out the back door. Drinks are on me. You boys enjoy the evening.....

[Perrone Ford]

Originally Posted by Shaun Roemich

An unfair pronouncement: BROADCAST SD is FAR from dead, even if we can no longer buy SD only televisions.

True. Parallel broadcasting is happening nationally and many smaller stations cannot afford to make the jump. Our local city and PBS are still SD. But all the national affiliates are broadcasting parallel.

[Brian Drysdale]

I know HDV cameras which are used for broadcast work and they only shoot SD, not HD.

There was a review I read on Amazon for Paul Wheeler's book on HD Cinematography about 3 or 4 years ago that said HDCAM was obsolete, for a format in that condition it still seems to be live and kicking and probably is still used more than the mentioned replacement. It's off spring, HDCAM SR, is being used with the new Arri Alexa on one TV drama series, one advantage being they didn't need a data wrangler.

People may buy HD televisions, but how many people are actually watching HD on them? Some people are confused and believe they are watching HD, but in fact are only watching SD. In many parts of the world you can only get SD.

BTW PAL can look pretty good on a HD television as long as the screen isn't too large or you sit too close.

[Perrone Ford]

Originally Posted by Brian Drysdale

I know HDV cameras which are used for broadcast work and they only shoot SD, not HD.

I really don't know what this statement means...

Originally Posted by Brian Drysdale

There was a review I read on Amazon for Paul Wheeler's book on HD Cinematography about 3 or 4 years ago that said HDCAM was obsolete, for a format in that condition it still seems to be live and kicking and probably is still used more than the mentioned replacement. It's off spring, HDCAM SR, is being used with the new Arri Alexa on one TV drama series, one advantage being they didn't need a data wrangler.

HDCamSR bears practically zero resemblance to HDCam other than the name.

Originally Posted by Brian Drysdale

People may buy HD televisions, but how many people are actually watching HD on them? Some people are confused and believe they are watching HD, but in fact are only watching SD. In many parts of the world you can only get SD.

Which is why I said "in the US". And yes not everyone understand when they are watching HD or SD signals. Compounded by the fact that many of today's DVD and BluRay players upscale standard DVDs so well. But I guarantee you, if you pop in your VHS copy of Indiana Jones, and then the BluRay, it's going to look vastly different. And Joe Blow home viewer is going to see it instantly.

Originally Posted by Brian Drysdale

BTW PAL can look pretty good on a HD television as long as the screen isn't too large or you sit too close.

Many things look pretty good if maintain your distance from them... ;)

[Steve Phillipps]

I tend to agree with just about everything Perrone has posted in this thread.
This includes his thoughts about prosumer type cameras are going to be prone to breaking with field use - I think most of them are well upto it unless you hammer nails in with them. The old Canon EX-1 Hi8 camera was very plasticky but just went on and on and on.
Steve

[Brian Drysdale]

Originally Posted by Perrone Ford

I really don't know what this statement means...

They use them to shoot only DV not HDV.

[/QUOTE]HDCamSR bears practically zero resemblance to HDCam other than the name.[/QUOTE]

True, but it's still in that bigger camera, 1/2" tape, non data style of kit derived from Betacam origins.

[/QUOTE] And Joe Blow home viewer is going to see it instantly.[/QUOTE]

Indeed, but Blu Ray isn't doing that well against the ye olde DVDs.

[/QUOTE]Many things look pretty good if maintain your distance from them... ;)[/QUOTE]

Same with HD televisions, after a certain distance there mightn't be much to choose because the eye can't resolve the extra detail. I'm not saying SD is better, but it's easy on forums to forget that many people and even companies don't jump at the latest gadget or format on the market.

[Perrone Ford]

Originally Posted by Brian Drysdale

True, but it's still in that bigger camera, 1/2" tape, non data style of kit derived from Betacam origins.

I think MANY people would jump at the chance to have 1080p, 4:4:4 recording at 10bit, with 12 available tracks of 24bit audio. Sadly, the recorders for HDCamSR are well over $50k, and the tapes are over $100 per hour. Even on big shoots, this is falling out of favor quickly. Options like the Codex and others are far more favorable. And if 4:4:4 isn't needed, then the Nanoflash and the Wafian are in the running as well. I suspect one could purchase a Nanoflash for what it would cost for a week's rental of an HDCamSR deck. And you wouldn't have to pay a PA to lug it around all week either.

Originally Posted by Brian Drysdale

Indeed, but Blu Ray isn't doing that well against the ye olde DVDs.

Actually, it's doing just fine. Even in the midst of a worldwide recession, sales are brisk, media costs have come down quickly, and burner costs have moved mainstream faster than DVD did. I bought some BluRay's last week at the local Best Buy, and noticed that what started as a half-rack display (BluRay) now has nearly equal floor space to DVDs. I suspect by Christmas, the scales will have tipped to BluRay. We are already seeing the $100 BluRay players. I predicted we'd see the $150 major brand players by the summer, and we've seen that too. I have no doubt we'll see $100-$125 units from Sony, Samsung, LG, and others by the holiday season.

[Brian Drysdale]

The HDCAM SR currently has advantages on tight schedule TV dramas and that's where you often find it. On these the recorder is just another bit of camera kit that doesn't require another person just to carry it. Mostly it's used in 4:2;2, the 4:4:4 being used more for effects. In the longer term the ProRes option on the Alexa and possibly the RED cameras should replace the HDCAM SR on these productions, but who knows.

Everything has advantages and disadvantages, one cost can be off laid by another, perhaps not helped by an industry that is conservative and risk averse.

With Blu Ray the problem may be the higher cost of the discs rather than the players - just looking at a top UK site selling both. Blu Ray is around 50% more expensive, the DVDs being the same price they've been for some time. In the longer term they should catch up, but the prices will have to drop for the sales volume to increase significantly, especially in a recession. It could be the higher profit margins that interest the retailer than the volume.

http://www.digitaltrends.com/enterta...-expectations/

[Steve Kalle]

Originally Posted by Perrone Ford

Actually, it's [Blu Ray] doing just fine. Even in the midst of a worldwide recession, sales are brisk, media costs have come down quickly, and burner costs have moved mainstream faster than DVD did...

Shhhhh...be quiet....Steve Jobs might hear you :p