Medium & Large Format Film Cameras
 

Jim Andrada and I got off topic in the audio section and it was so much fun that I opened a new thread to continue the conversation here. Okay, it's not exactly DV production, but practicing photography and learning film can definitely contribute to one's video shooting skills.

The previous thread is here...
http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/all-thin...ml#post1755011

In summary, I got a Bronica S2A and am taking a darkroom class. Jim has an amazing background in photography and brought up the possibility of getting an old 1950s 4x5 press camera. Apparently, you can get a Graphic 4x5 for about $300.

And the thread continues...

Getting a 4x5 camera could be attractive. Not only would it make a great prop, but it allows fast, easy contact prints. For those not versed in film, for a "contact print" you just develop the negative, then lay it on top of photo paper and expose. No enlarger required. Just squeeze the emulsion side of the negative to the paper with a sheet of glass and apply light. This allowed fast turnaround for the press, back in the day.

4x5 materials aren't too expensive. Using "4x" as the guideline, one can blow up the prints to 16x20 before the film grain gets bigger than the paper grain.

I'm going to stick with the Bronica S2A and Nikkor 70/2.8 for now, but a 4x5 sounds really fun. It's really at the limit for "people on the street" photography.

On one hand, the Bronica is larger and less stealthy than a digital camera. On the other hand, I think people see it more as valid photography as opposed to the voyeurism of a 35mm or phone cam. With a 70-200 on the street, I feel conspicuous. With the Bronica, I feel old-school cool. :)

Re: Medium & Large Format Film Cameras
 

I never had a Bronica or Blad but I did have one of the first Mamiya RB67 cameras. Before that I had a Rollie TWL along with a couple of Nikon F's and I did have a 4x5. I used Deardorf 8x10 view cameras with 5x7 and 4x5 backs and had the absolute pleasure of using a Deardorf 11x14. WOW! My wedding camera was a Graflex XL 6x7 with an 80mm lens (stock) a 3 220 film backs. Rangefinder, quiet sharp as a tack.
I loved the RB67-great image, great camera BUT it sounded like a canon going off. When the mirror snapped, it was BAM! The image was great. That was my go to for fashion and model comp shots. The Graflex XL was my wedding camera, the Nikons for news, sports and journalistic stuff and the view cameras were at a studio I contracted to for catalouge work. My personal view camera was for fun stuff.
I loved them all like they were my children and probably spent more time with them than I did with my children ;-)
The images produced from the 6X7s and up were simply fantastic!
I miss them all!
Kodacolor, TriX, PanX, Extachrome and of course, Kodachrome. Gotta love the film days!

Re: Medium & Large Format Film Cameras
 

I show you mine, if you show me yours......

This is my Kowa 6 - I was still trying to beat the system in those days. Kowa 6 was touted at the Japanese Hasseblad. All lens had their own leaf shutter. My pic below includes 85mm F 2.8 Kowa, 55mm % 3.5 Kowa, and 150 mm F 3.5 Kowa lenses, They gained a reputation for a faulty film advance but this one still working reasonably well. Thought about selling it once or twice, but never seemed to be that good in terms of return....See attached pic.

Re: Medium & Large Format Film Cameras
 

I shot with my mentor's RB67 for a number of years... MAN, I miss that thing and you hit the nail right on the head... NOTHING subtle about the shutter/mirror release!

Re: Medium & Large Format Film Cameras
 

Hi again Jon - I'm back (for better or worse)

I have two RB67's and absolutely love them - Don is absolutely right about what the mirror sounds like. It's a heck of a "Whomp" because the camera has a revolving back (Revolving Back = RB - Damned clever eh) and the format can be 6 x 7 cm either verticaly or horizontaly, so the mirror is a lot bigger than the mirror in a Bronica etc. In fact mirror slap can be limiting to the quality of the image at any slowish shutter speed so when used on a tripod I always use a special Mamiya cable that forks into a mirror tripper and a shutter tripper. Push part way down and the mirror does it's WHOMP thing and then wait for the tremors to subside and push further and the shutter clicks.

Why do I have two camera bodies - because I found a great 500mm lens and it only works on the Pro - SD which has a larger lens opening than my Pro-S. So I bought a Pro-SD body for next to nothing just to hang on the back of the lens. I also got a macro extension tube and the 140mm macro lens. VERY sharp. Following is a shot of a poor unfortunate moth taken with the extension tube and macro lens shortly after passing into what the Japanese refer to as "eternal sleep".

https://www.dropbox.com/s/s3zfjnvgtf...Moth-Small.jpg

500 mm lens on RB67

https://www.dropbox.com/s/yaasngdtde...0mm%20rb67.jpg

And just for fun

https://www.dropbox.com/s/p2i6mtc011...nhof%20810.JPG

https://www.dropbox.com/s/j7qicv9c5squ675/Seneca.JPG

https://www.dropbox.com/s/3m1sd1i9pp...%20Graphic.JPG

https://www.dropbox.com/s/k9s1ijgdci67xz1/Super.JPG

Re: Medium & Large Format Film Cameras
 

Chris, I forgot about the Kowa. I never had or used one but I knew a couple of guys that did and they loved them. I think at the time we were all looking for anything to get away from the 35mm cameras. Can't figure out why though. I loved my Nikons but for me each camera had a different purpose in life.
Do you remember the camera that was in the shape of a 35 but shot 6x7? Pentax perhaps? I can only image how unwieldy that beast was.

Yep rotating backs. Gosh, I had forgotten about that. Just like the time or 10 I forgot to put the dark slide in either the RB or Graflex before yanking off the film back. <sigh> Uh, Mr. high powered executive, I'd like to do a few more head shots for you, no charge! :-(

Thank goodness I never forgot that when using the Deardorfs, especially the 11x14. That film was pretty costly.

Re: Medium & Large Format Film Cameras
 

@ Chris

Yeah - I forgot to add my +1 to Don's response - it is a nice setup.

@ All

There are a number of sort of 35mm-ish 120 cameras like the Pentax, but the SLR's all suffer from mirror slap issues and are not the best handheld cameras even if they look like they should be

Mamiya 7II though (and a couple of Fuji's) are really superb handheld cams because they are rangefinder beasts - no slap. I think the lenses for the Mamiya 7 are among the sharpest in the universe.The Mamiya fetches quite high prices for a 120 camera.on the used market.

Re: Medium & Large Format Film Cameras
 

I can remember owning a little old meterless Pentax 35mm SLR and lusting after the Pentax 6x7. Bigger was better in terms of image, in those days. Same old issues we discuss today, lens sharpness, depth of field, grain, low light performance.. Remember pushing Tri X and others to hi ASA ratings by using different times and developers.

Re: Medium & Large Format Film Cameras
 

Chris, I remember back when pushing TriX as high as 2400. Nightime, news stuff. Strobe or not 2400 for newpaper stuff was "da bomb"!!;-) No one cared about grain. Heck for some shots the more grain the better!
Ah the "good old days"! Ha, if they were so good we'd still be using the Nikon F's, the RB67's and the Rolli TWL's. Still all great cameras! <sigh> Now I know I'm gettin' old!

O|O
\--/

Re: Medium & Large Format Film Cameras
 

The RB67 has a louder shutter/mirror operation than the Bronica. Man, oh man!

The Bronica is interesting in that the mirror slides down rather than flipping up. This allows the lenses to go deeper into the body so they apparently need less optical correction. Since the mirror faces up and the ground glass isn't blocked, there are curtains that slide over to cover the ground glass and mirror to keep stray light from entering and light from the lens from bouncing around. With all that stuff going on, as well as the focal plane shutter, everybody within earshot knows you released the shutter.

That said, the vibration isn't too bad. Since the mirror slides, rather than flipping on a hinge, it's fairly stable. And since the camera is so heavy, I can easily shoot 1/30 handheld with the 75mm lens. At that point, one risks more subject movement than camera movement. I guess that 1/8 on a cheap tripod could be trouble. For bulb exposures it's no problem since the exposure time is much longer than the slap time.

I recently heard somebody say that they learned as much shooting digital (video) for a year as they did shooting (cinema) film for ten years. With the high cost of film, you couldn't shoot much and when you did you didn't get instant feedback.

Personally, I think DSLR video is an amazing training ground. It's cheap per shot, you get instant feedback, and you're forced to fit things within 8-bits while doing everything manually. Moving to medium format film after shooting DSLR video has been a blast! I'm using Sunny 16 related exposure rules when I can. For really challenging stuff, I break out the DSLR and get it right with the histogram and then freewheel for a while from there. The stuff I learned from the DSLR really improved my film shooting and the stuff I continue to learn with film stills helps me improve my artistry with the DSLR.

The big difference though is that I want to enlarge and frame my best film shots. I've only rarely done that with the DSLR.

Re: Medium & Large Format Film Cameras
 

There was something magical about the darkroom. When I lived in hills above Fresno in a mobile home on my in-laws small ranch in early 70's, I built my self a freestanding darkroom. I built a sink to using fiber glass to accomodate 11 x 14 trays, and installed own water heater. Knew nothing about carpentry, but learned fast building it from the ground up. Spent many late night hours in that dark room. Even experimented with color processing, using filters in my Bessler 23c... lusted after the dichroic color head, but never got one. I thank god for digital most of the time, but occasionally, that darkroom ritual comes back as a fond memory.

Re: Medium & Large Format Film Cameras
 

Your right on - magic! First time I developed negs and prints I think I was 4 or 5 years old helping (???) my father. We didn't actually have a darkroom, just waited for it to get dark and set up on the kitchen table. I remember the first time I saw a print coming up in the developer. Wow! I was hooked.

Re: Medium & Large Format Film Cameras
 

The smell of developer, the yellow fingers. Brings back so many memories. Oh to be that young and eager again.
When I started developing my own color film and printing in color and developing Extachrome I was stunned and amazed. Good Golly Miss Molly!

Re: Medium & Large Format Film Cameras
 

Ah, the glorious days of film + paper...

I was in sixth or seventh grade and my chemistry teacher asked me if I'd like to learn photo processing. And learn I did - from general principles all the way to specific technologies.

And this was another time, another part of the world - we didn't just walk into the store and buy the prepackaged chemicals - we MADE them. Yes, from metol, hidroquinone, sodium carbonite and so on. No digital balances, just good old/ancient mechanical ones... How the world has changed! I will never forget those experiences.

Any of you guys made your own chemicals?

Re: Medium & Large Format Film Cameras
 

Oh yes - mechanical balances - we used to keep them in a draft proof cabinet and close the door and let things settle. Nobody knew what digital was (well at least no normal people)

I remember the first time I actually overheard heard someone say the word "computer" while I was waiting for an electric bus in Harvard Square - must have been 1965 or so-. (I programmed my first machine in 1959)

Take a look here

Photographers' Formulary Inc.

By the way you might find this forum of interest. I think a couple of folks from this forum also post there (Greg Miller comes to mind)

Large Format Photography Forum

This one is pretty good too

http://www.apug.org/forums/home.php

Re: Medium & Large Format Film Cameras
 

Ah! The Wayback Machine ...

I was shooting photos for my father's books when I was 13, using the Rolleiflex TLR, Pentax Spotmatic, and Mamiyaflex TLR with interchangeable lenses. Along the way I had the Pentax 67, Pentax 645, Nikon Fs, Olympus OMs, Leica R system, Leica M system, Nikonus, Rollie35, and back to Nikon SLR. Nice to have all these Nikon lenses for the DSLR video, and now the Sony FS700.

I gave away a dozen film cameras two years ago and sold the medium format stuff. The ones which are left are for quaint displays in our entryway. Just found a Luna Pro which will go there, also.

Man, I shot a lot of magazine pictures (not "images") with that stuff. Now, what to do with 50,000+ slides and transparencies.

Re: Medium & Large Format Film Cameras
 

I still have a Rapid Omega 100 tucked away in a box, I think it still works, haven't touched it in 15 years.

Re: Medium & Large Format Film Cameras
 

I bought an Epson V600 for a bit under $200. It does everything I need for B&W. Haven't tried it with color yet. It has a nice holder for strips of 35mm or 120 film (three 6x6 shots plus room to spare.) Epson's V700 is nicer and costs more, but for scanning negatives/slides for use on displays, the V600 is more than good enough. If I want a large print, I'll do it in analog. The Canon 9900F competes well with the V600.

Frankly, the biggest problem is dust. That requires good handing and attention to detail more than an expensive scanner.

Of course, the biggest problem is time. With 50,000+ items, you'd either need to prioritize or send them and a big check to a service. Keep in mind the old adage that the difference between a pro and an amateur photographer is that the pro doesn't show you all their pictures. :)

Re: Medium & Large Format Film Cameras
 

Jon, you are right about that. Just yesterday I was telling a young photographer one of my favorite sayings. "You are known for what you show, not for what you shoot."

Time is the issue. Still working 80 to 90-hour weeks.

Working on ways to use the photos -- probably scan in the magazine articles they went with (thousands of them) and put them into Kindle E-book form (for articles).

Re: Medium & Large Format Film Cameras
 

The nice thing(???) about large format is that the film and processing are so expensive that you don't shoot so much - to say nothing of the time consuming logistics of setting up a big camera, discovering that you should have set it up a couple of feet away, re-setting it up, etc etc.

Having said that I ran into a gentleman a few weeks ago who said he's shot over 10k 4 x 5 slides, mainly for calendars.

I'm always a bit conflicted as to whether 4 x 5 is really large format or just large medium format. Having started with 5 x 7 and 8 x 10 I find the 4 x 5 ground glass a bit small for composing. But it's a lot easier to stuff the Graphic rather than the 8 x 10 Linhof in my briefcase so I tend to carry it around more when I travel.

Re: Medium & Large Format Film Cameras
 

From a materials standpoint 4x5 is large format. It doesn't use roll film. From a size standpoint, I think it depends... If you do 4x5 contact prints for many of your finals, it's like using large format. If you always enlarge for your finals, it's more like using medium format.

Whether it's called large or not doesn't really matter. At least its clearer than deciding if a given camera is "professional". ;)

Re: Medium & Large Format Film Cameras
 

I know - it's a tricky definition and not sure it makes a lot of difference. I just personally find the 4 x 5 a bit confining when composing - much more so than 5 x 7 or 8 x 10. Haven't done 11 x 14 but I suspect I'd really like it. Or even 14 x 17 but at $550 for a new film holder I think I'll pass on it.

There are always a lot of threads on the LF Forum trying to actually define "Large Format"

Re: Medium & Large Format Film Cameras
 

I think the challenge is with the word "large".

From a usage point of view, one operates a 4x5 camera the same as an 8x10 camera. But it's certainly not as "large". A medium format SLR, on the other hand, has the ground glass on the top, uses roll film, and makes inadequate contact prints so it's clearly not in the same class as a view camera.

And maybe that's the better term: "View" rather than "Large."

There. Problem solved. The controversy has ended and will never emerge again. ;) ;) ;)

Now, let me explain why Tate's catch was truly a touchdown... :)

Re: Medium & Large Format Film Cameras
 

I found that for personal stuff, in particular landscapes that the 4X5 worked great. Plus, it's what I had.
when I was contracted to a studio doing catalogue work we did almost everything in 1:1. So if we needed a 3.5X6 inch shot for a page we shot 5X7 and so on. Rarely did anything but crop out the excess areas. We had tissues drawn by the art deptartment to actual size of the image needed for the pages so it was taping the tissue to the back glass, place the items in to match the tissue, LIGHT, (the really fun part) check the setup about 27 times then shoot. Every piece of film was developed immediately and the shot checked before the setup was broken down. The 11X14 was unwieldly to say the least but for a full page shot, it was DA BOMB!

Re: Medium & Large Format Film Cameras
 

Re "Large Format" - it is hard to pin down. There used to be 3 x 4 and 2 x 3 inch sheet film for
Baby" Graphics etc.

And digital backs on 4 x 5 cameras are (usually) much smaller than 4 x 5

Regardless, these cameras are great fun to use.

Re: Medium & Large Format Film Cameras
 

Last night I completed my darkroom class at this Portland, OR non-profit: Newspace Center for Photography. It rocked! I learned a ton. Last night I completed a couple of beautiful 11x11 prints that I will frame later today.

FWIW, on Friday, Newspace will hold a 10th anniversary reception. It will feature a member's showcase. And beer. ;) Anybody in Portland who is into large and medium format photography should attend.

As mentioned, I've been shooting with a Bronica S2A with a Nikkor P 75/2.8 lens. After I re-fit and adjusted the ground glass, the camera is excellent. It has a focal plane shutter that might not be super calibrated, but hasn't affected my images. I either use the Sunny 16 rules (22 for snow/sand, 16 for direct sunlight, 11 for hazy sunlight (soft shadows), 8.0 if you can see faint shadows, 5.6 for no shadows, 4.0 for open shade) or I use my 5D2 histogram when things are challenging, like near sunset or under lights.)

Regarding the lens, people mostly love it and they are mostly - but not completely - right. It's an equivalent 45mm lens. At f/2.8, it's reasonably fast. I haven't tested it, but based on lines in some photos, the distortion is near zero. The Bronica's mirror falls out of the way, so the lens can extend far back, needed less correction. I think that contributes to its ruler-straight lines. The focus throw is well over 180 degrees, is smooth as silk, and my setup includes a metal handle for excellent accuracy. The engravings are well-calibrated - you can focus with a tape measure, if you want. Contrast is excellent for 1970s glass. Flare is surprisingly well controlled, but that might also be due to my use of a UV filter and the stock metal hood. I tend to shade the lens with my hand as well when needed, so maybe the low flare is based on good practice, rather than the coating. Given that I shoot B&W exclusively, CA is not an issue. (It's even less of an issue if you use colored filters.)

Now to the one bad point... The bokeh stinks! Rather than circles, I get extreme doughnut shapes. Specular highlights become thin rings rather than smooth, round shapes. Yes, this contributes to a vintage look, but having some nice, modern glass, I'm not a fan. Say you snap a person in the shade with a deciduous tree and bright sky in the background. With even a slightly shallow DOF, the highlights in the tree will turn into rings that distort the leaves strangely. To tame it, one needs to burn the heck out of such a background during printing. If you let those rings blow out, the result can be pretty harsh.

I need to learn more about developing negs at home. I have a septic system and a well and like to be environmentally responsible, so I need to study my options before I go for it. I've got an Epson V600 scanner that seems to do everything I need (as long as I clean the dust regularly). But for special photos, I'll definitely take the time to enlarge, burn, and dodge the prints myself. If there's one thing I've learned it's that you can't just do a uniform print if you want the best result.

This film thing is a blast. If anything, it makes me want to shoot B&W 35mm motion picture film. I wonder what it would take to be able to process, print, edit, and project B&W cinema film at home? That would be a blast!

Re: Medium & Large Format Film Cameras
 

I have a Canon ftb that I bought 35 years ago and still in excellent condition.

stelios