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Old September 24th, 2014, 06:13 AM   #16
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Re: Are there any 2/3" ENG Cams 1080@60p with no Jello Effect

Quote:
Originally Posted by Douglas Call View Post
Yes I'm sure that's all true. However the original question I posed is why with all this great quality we're talking about can't they provide the Broadcast Camera to also give an option for 1080p @ 60fps HD422 or 444 output on either a HD SDI (or dual HD SDI) and/or 3G-SDI outs. Like I said and apparently no one has quite picked up on what my original intent for the post .......
Ok, to try to address it directly.....

Firstly, I think what you're referring to is increasingly becoming available - Glen has already mentioned the Sony PVW-X500.

Secondly, then whilst I see your point, I'm not sure it has had much sales impetus in the last few years, and would also be stretching the technology - what codec would you use, for example?

The main purchasers of 2/3" cameras are likely to be broadcast stations and freelancers working for them, and all they are really interested in is their native format, likely 1080i or 720p - 1080p/50(60) is not in the spec for broadcast anywhere in the world at present AFAIK. So few of their target customers care about the lack of 1080p/50 - why spend extra money for a more advanced feature they'll never use?

And until recently providing a 1080p/50 option without compromise has been difficult.

At the cheaper end of the market it's different. Features sell, true quality doesn't. And target customers aren't likely to be so constrained by tight standards as broadcasters need to be.

As example just think of codecs. 1080p/50 came in early with AVC-HD, and it only needed a slight increase in bit rate to accommodate it. (24-28Mbs) But for an I-frame only codec, you need to double the datarate to get 1080p/50 - 100-200Mbs for AVC-Intra100. I've already given the example of the FS700 and framerates and resolution drop. That's sensible for a camera in this class - the resolution compromise would not be acceptable on a true pro camera.

It's wrong to judge a camera purely (and solely) in terms of headline specs. If the headline spec is achieved via some other compromise, you're being misled. That said, I do think that what you want is on it's way - but unlike the lower end of the market, it won't arrive until it can be done without compromise.
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Old September 24th, 2014, 08:48 AM   #17
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Re: Are there any 2/3" ENG Cams 1080@60p with no Jello Effect

I understand what your saying I just don't necessarily agree. I think what shot for Broadcast is also great for PPV and PPV is 1080p. Read below:

Are DIRECTV CINEMA™ movies and Pay Per View events available in HD? Response from Direct TV:
Yes. All DIRECTV CINEMA™ movies are available in 1080p HD, the same stunning quality as Blu-ray™. Most of the DIRECTV Pay Per View events are also available in HD. Just look for "HD" next to the program title in your guide. To enjoy HD programming from DIRECTV, you'll need:
•An HD-ready television.
•An HD receiver and a DIRECTV Slimline dish.
•Advanced Receiver Service-HD.

So what I'm saying once again is that if I'm shooting a private celebrity sports event a portion can certainly go to Broadcast TV but the identical thing can got to PPV at 1080p. Furthermore I believe there is now the ability to simultaneously write dual codecs to XQD cards for example. One of them will be that revered Standard Broadcast Standard you're talking about (that will change BTW remember there didn't use to be 1080i either) while the internal electronics just writes to the other XQD card in a codec appropriate for generating 1080p PPV type content through the many different PPV outlets.

Last edited by Douglas Call; September 24th, 2014 at 08:50 AM. Reason: misspelled
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Old September 24th, 2014, 11:11 AM   #18
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Re: Are there any 2/3" ENG Cams 1080@60p with no Jello Effect

David, as usual you are making great points. I find myself siding more along the lines of Douglas in this situation though. Yes, broadcast level cameras need to be no compromise as their first objective but I think it is short sided of the industry to not include lower level features. Let's face it, all of us have to work in this instant, compromised quality world at the same time of wanting to deliver without compromise.

Lets look at a small example. The Panasonic cameras seem to split at pricing where the AVCHD codec ends and the AVC codec begins. I avoided P2 cameras up until the PX-270 because all they offered was AVC-Intra which was not long form friendly imho. If they had just added AVCHD as an option with these cameras I would have probably purchased. This would not alter the no compromise ability of the camera, but instead give ME, the end user options.

Even though I like AVC-Ultra on the PX-270, I have people who want me to hand over files the day of the shoot. I they had included AVCHD as a dual-codec or even a single codec option I could hand them footage they can work with and had the "good stuff" to take home. The PX-270 does have a dual codec option with MP4 only at 1080i which I am using, but the image quality is just good.

I guess my overall point here is that pristine quality is no longer your only delivery. Folks want stuff fast, like now. Even if you have an expensive camera this applies. The consumer cameras are adding so much that the established "big dogs" are looking a bit stale. It is up to the makers to keep them relevant or nobody in large numbers will spend the money to buy them.
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Old September 24th, 2014, 04:52 PM   #19
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Re: Are there any 2/3" ENG Cams 1080@60p with no Jello Effect

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim Polster View Post
David, as usual you are making great points. I find myself siding more along the lines of Douglas in this situation though. Yes, broadcast level cameras need to be no compromise as their first objective but I think it is short sided of the industry to not include lower level features.
Whoa! :-) I was saying it as I see it is - not how I think it should be!

Actually, I can see both sides of the coin. The other side of the coin is that the primary customers for these cameras want a no-compromise, no frills product. Partly from a cost point of view ("why pay for features we'll never use?"), but partly that the fewer things to tweak, the fewer that can be set wrongly!! :-)

But it is changing, and maybe because all users are starting to demand flexibility, which means more options, so in for a penny, in for......
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim Polster View Post
I avoided P2 cameras up until the PX-270 because all they offered was AVC-Intra which was not long form friendly imho. If they had just added AVCHD as an option with these cameras I would have probably purchased. This would not alter the no compromise ability of the camera, but instead give ME, the end user options.
Again, I tend to agree with you personally - but I can see that they may have thought it would give more trouble than it would help. Maybe they thought that "it's a pro camera - all it needs is a pro codec". Combined with the concern that it could end up mis set (to AVCHD on an AVC-Intra shoot) and best just to avoid any chance of confusion.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim Polster View Post
I guess my overall point here is that pristine quality is no longer your only delivery. Folks want stuff fast, like now. Even if you have an expensive camera this applies.
Increasingly this is true. Probably the impetus in the pro world is the idea of proxy quality. The rationale is driven by broadcasters (esp news) who may want ANYTHING back quickly, to get something to air and the smaller the better. But they are also seen as to be used for off-line editing whilst waiting for the full quality material. But yes - for web video etc they may be in fact the main product.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim Polster View Post
The consumer cameras are adding so much that the established "big dogs" are looking a bit stale. It is up to the makers to keep them relevant or nobody in large numbers will spend the money to buy them.
I may diverge from you here. The more consumer the camera, the more "features" it may have - but do most people even use them? You may get "sepia mode" on a consumer camera - but will you find it on a pro one? :-)

OK, a bit unfair, and I suspect you have matters like 50/60p in mind in what you say. But it may come at a cost (compromise) and from a broadcasters perspective..... well, what's the point, we're never going to use it!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Douglas Call
I think what shot for Broadcast is also great for PPV and PPV is 1080p. Read below:

Are DIRECTV CINEMA™ movies and Pay Per View events available in HD? Response from Direct TV:
Yes. All DIRECTV CINEMA™ movies are available in 1080p HD.....
Be a bit careful here, because what do you mean by "1080p"? I suspect DirectTV are using it to mean 1080p/24 - and that is something most broadcast cameras CAN do only too well, even if not 1080p/50(60).

I'd also take case to distinguish between "Broadcast Standard" (which tends to infer quality aspects) and "Broadcast format" ( which may be taken to mean the transmission standard). And in respect to this discussion it's the latter that is most significant. If a current broadcast station decided they wanted to up
their format (say from 1080i/25 to 1080p/50) then errr, they'd have a problem - none of their viewers would have a means of watching it! Same with codec choices and transmission standards. It was bad enough with analogue and differing line standards, then colour encoding systems (PAL, NTSC, SECAM) - same basic issues here. Viewers and broadcasters have to have a common standard.

Yes, it isn't fixed forever in stone, I've seen it go from 405 to 625 lines and then to HD, also b/w to colour, and 4:3 to widescreen. But each change doesn't just mean the broadcasters buying new equipment, but all of their viewers as well. Coupled with there often having to be a period of simulcasting during the changeover, it's not something they want to do lightly, and certainly not often!

In that respect I personally see 1080p/50 as too incremental a change to be worth rewriting the whole spec (which all receivers need to adhere to) for it's own sake. The next change is likely to allow for such as 4k as well as higher progressive framerates.
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Old September 24th, 2014, 07:06 PM   #20
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Re: Are there any 2/3" ENG Cams 1080@60p with no Jello Effect

I think it's nice that you are willing to stand up for the broadcast camera manufactures and trying to save them from change but trust me the cats out of the box and it's not going back in soon.

Another point is that if the broadcast camera's can already do 1080p @ 24fps and the camera operators aren't hitting the wrong button every time they need to select the correct recording format then I don't believe by having one more setting for 1080p @ 60fps that all of a sudden they'll keep recording the wrong codecs.

I'm also starting to wonder if we have different ideas of what broadcast TV is. For me to define Broadcast TV is any of these services: NBC, CBS, Fox, Comcast, Direct TV or Netflix House of Cards in 4k or Hulu. Some may be re-broadcast TV but the medium is all TV. And as you know many of the reality TV shows of today which are shot on F5 or RED ones etc are either 1080p native or 4Kp native. However all the broadcasted content is simply piped over the appropriate type of media network that it requires. We're in too diverse a media intensive age to refer to broadcast as only X. In my opinion Websters dictionary as usual is behind the curve.

The point is Broadcast TV is many things. However that doesn't mean I shouldn't be able to buy one Broadcast Camera that can produce media appropriate for more than one form of Broadcast media pie.
It's incorrect that peoples TV Won't play 1080p. They will play 1080p @ 60fps through HDMI which is how the cable box, satellite box or Internet connection connects to your TV anyway. I haven't even seen an "off air" Broadcast for 10 years.

If 1080p comes through my Comcast cable and in to my TV through HDMI I'm seeing it no problem. No different than when 1080p comes through the HDMI from my Blu-ray or my PC. If you read the supported video codecs playable by your own HD Smart TV you'd be amazed how many codecs you can feed it through HDMI. I have several newer TV's that all support HVEC codec for streaming 4k broadcast like Netflix House of Cards in 4K.

I also don't believe that broadcast camera manufacturers should be anymore immune to having to make changes with the times and I mean quick and timely changes than anyone else in any other industry. Since there is usually an HDMI box between you and any broadcast I don't see any limitation on anyone seeing whatever the diverse networks want to broadcast to the end users.

To be serious we all wish we could just stand up in our respective businesses and say NO we're not going to change it would take testing, time, money and training, new equipment plus we're basically set in our ways. Hooyey I say. Right! Yeh just tell everyone that, I'm sure they'll believe it as long as they heard it on the Internet!
There are no protected industries now, broadcast included they have to change or guess what Comcast, Direct TV and Netflix will just start taking away their business many of them are doing their own productions and guess what many are in native 1080p.
So manufacturers who make cameras to sell to people who create content for broadcast in any of todays diverse forms of broadcast need to accommodate more than one revered format in their cameras. I am a purchaser of camera equipment and am quickly seeing that the Cinematic and DSLR manufacturers are catering to the publics needs. And before we call these camera's cute gadgets my F-65 which is very tricked out gadget does 4K superbly unless I select alternate more compressed codes to target capture in. Sony has provided a feature that also lets me get 1080p proxies gee isn't that neat.
David go ahead tells us what your own beliefs are let the broadcast industry stick up for themselves. If it doesn't guess what they'll be a lot of shooters buying a lot less shoulder cams for sure.
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Old September 25th, 2014, 07:21 AM   #21
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Re: Are there any 2/3" ENG Cams 1080@60p with no Jello Effect

I inspected the Sony PMW-500 operators manual closely and didn't find any mention of the capability to record 1080p @ 59.97p in HD422 at 50Mbps.
OPERATION >Format menu settings Video format (recording
format/system frequency)
Frame size 1920x1080
HD/SD HD System Line Rec Format System Frequency
a) HD 1080 HD422 50Mbps:
59.94i HD422 1920/59.94i, 50i HD422 1920/50i, 29.97P HD422 1920/29.97P, 25P HD422 1920/25P, 23.98P HD422 1920/23.98P
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Old September 25th, 2014, 07:33 AM   #22
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Re: Are there any 2/3" ENG Cams 1080@60p with no Jello Effect

Not PMW500, it won't do it, but the PXW-X500 will.
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Old September 25th, 2014, 07:05 PM   #23
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Re: Are there any 2/3" ENG Cams 1080@60p with no Jello Effect

Quote:
Originally Posted by Douglas Call View Post
I inspected the Sony PMW-500 operators manual closely and didn't find any mention of the capability to record 1080p @ 59.97p in HD422 at 50Mbps.
Wrong camera. The earlier link - http://www.sony.co.uk/pro/product/br...view/#overview - is for a much newer camera, albeit with a similar name (PXW-X500). PMW denotes XDCAM (which has no 50/60p option in the MPEG2 spec), PXW denotes XAVC capable, as well as XDCAM compatible.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Douglas Call View Post
It's incorrect that peoples TV Won't play 1080p. They will play 1080p @ 60fps through HDMI which is how the cable box, satellite box or Internet connection connects to your TV anyway. I haven't even seen an "off air" Broadcast for 10 years.
The *TV* may be OK with 50/60p through HDMI, but it's not in the spec for most set-top boxes, certainly any that use any DVB transmission spec, be it terrestrial, satellite or cable. OK, I believe North America uses another system, but AFAIK the same thing applies. No current set top boxes to DVB standard are capable of a 1080p/50 decode - even if it was being transmitted.

Internet is a different matter, but because of restricted bandwidth I wasn't aware of much other than 24p being streamed in real time? (And as regards quality, then overall compression seems more a problem than high frame rate.)

Which leaves non-real time download. But I get the impression that's more used for movies etc, and since they're all shot at 24fps, then I'd expect those to be mostly 24p as well?
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Old September 26th, 2014, 07:42 AM   #24
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Re: Are there any 2/3" ENG Cams 1080@60p with no Jello Effect

Thanks for the camera model# clarification. I was thinking the Sony would be a good option but then couldn't find how to set record option for 1080/60p in (PMW-500) operators manual. Yes your correct the US does have very good Internet streaming options at a reasonable price. I have 150Mbps/20Mbps. So you can find and stream 1080/60p on you tube and private sites.


However I was actually thinking of delivering the 1080/60p video footage I shoot at private charity events etc. Where you have large fundraisers and show privately shot celebrity, runway fashion shows, Tennis events directly from DVD/Blu-Ray I've burned to my DPI Titan 1080p Quad 3D projector.

Projector Detail

It has a 16,000 lumen light source and is great for projecting 21.5' diagonal video clips on wall for various corporate, charity, celebrity and of course training/seminar type events.
so basically it's me trying to match up the capabilities of my commercial venue projector with the best video input source I can get. Usually I'm showing runway fashion shows, celebrity and private parties etc on the wall as a backdrop for the event. However I've found that at 1080/60p the projector just seems to be really sharp even when there are dance or fitness exhibitions being featured.
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