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Old September 11th, 2014, 12:20 PM   #1
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Are there any 2/3" ENG Cams 1080@60p with no Jello Effect

It looks like the era of the shoulder mount ENG camera development is kind of dead. Yes we are seeing some of the new 2/3" shoulder cams that have all the latest and greatest networking features and even the new hot codecs and memory card capabilities. But they're still hung up on the old 1080 60i broadcast standard and none of them even considering Global Shutters (those using CMOS or MOS, obviously CCD cams don’t have the problem).
However this is a paradox every time I shot runway fashion, celebrity or red carpet with shoulder mount ENG I would get requests from many different clients (designers, celebrities and models) for high quality DVD. So why can’t I give the Broadcasters 60i and everyone else 60p native?

One perfect example of a brand new ENG is like the Panasonic AJ-PX800 (2.2 megapixel 2/3 type 3-MOS (RGB) image sensors) which is a very nice camera so I’m not ranking on any specific vendor here. But I would have thought that all of the latest advances would be incorporated in to these MOS & CMOS ENG cams. But I’m not seeing it. So is the deal to give all the small sensor consumer/prosumer cams 1080 @ 60p or 3860x2160 @ 60p while being sure to hobble the expensive big sensor ENG shoulder cams with 1080 @ 60i. Maybe I’m not looking at the right vendors. If so please direct me to any CMOS or MOS sensor’d 2/3” ENG shoulder cam that can do 1080 @ 60p.
All the cinema camera’s now days are moving into 4K @120p/240p and ENG’s (2/3” CMOS or MOS) are still back in the Stone Age. Jello Central.

I contend this is not the right strategy. There are multiple markets for everything any ENG shooter may shoot now days so ENG vendors need to provide multiple output capabilities that can address each one of these markets. In MHO.
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Old September 12th, 2014, 09:06 AM   #2
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Re: Are there any 2/3" ENG Cams 1080@60p with no Jello Effect

Well I did find out that the New Panasonic VariCam HS with Super35mm MOS sensor which is a shoulder mount type ENG/broadcast cam/recorder combo does support 1080p at up to 240fps. However no global shutter so there may be rolling shutter artefacts. but it does has 14 f-stops worth of latitude.

http://tpgweb2.net/panasonic/temp/Pa...S_brochure.pdf
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Old September 12th, 2014, 09:50 AM   #3
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Re: Are there any 2/3" ENG Cams 1080@60p with no Jello Effect

Why, yes there is, the new Sony PVW-X500. It has 3-CCD sensors, so no worries about jello-cam. It records in XAVC Long at 1080/60P.

http://www.sony.co.uk/pro/product/br...view/#overview
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Old September 12th, 2014, 10:01 AM   #4
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Re: Are there any 2/3" ENG Cams 1080@60p with no Jello Effect

Perfect. I have 3 Sony Camcorders already. I'll check it out thanks.
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Old September 12th, 2014, 10:07 AM   #5
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Re: Are there any 2/3" ENG Cams 1080@60p with no Jello Effect

Quote:
Originally Posted by Glen Vandermolen View Post
Why, yes there is, the new Sony PVW-X500. It has 3-CCD sensors, so no worries about jello-cam. It records in XAVC Long at 1080/60P.
Thanks that great info:

SStP SR-Lite 4:2:2 1920x1080/59.94i,50i,29.97P,23.98P,25P*
XAVC Intra 1920x1080/59.94i, 50i, 29.97P, 25P, 23.98P
1280x720/59.94P, 50P
XAVC Long 1920x1080/59.94i, 50i, 59.94P, 50P, 29.97P, 25P, 23.98P
1280x720/59.94P, 50P
MPEG HD422 1920x1080/59.94i, 50i, 29.97P, 25P, 23.98P
1280x720/59.94P, 50P, 29.97P, 25P, 23.98P
MPEG HD420 1920x1080/59.94i, 50i, 29.97P, 25P, 23.98P
1440x1080/59.94i, 50i
1280x720/59.94P, 50P

I guess it's Jello and 1080p at up to 240fps with the Panny.

Last edited by Douglas Call; September 12th, 2014 at 10:08 AM. Reason: I missed seeing the correct spec
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Old September 12th, 2014, 10:11 AM   #6
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Re: Are there any 2/3" ENG Cams 1080@60p with no Jello Effect

Sony SRW9000
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Old September 12th, 2014, 11:03 AM   #7
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Re: Are there any 2/3" ENG Cams 1080@60p with no Jello Effect

The PX-800 is pretty much in the same class as the HPX-500, HPX-600 cams. They're more affordable (about $10K less) than the HPX-3000 series and PX-5000. But there's a discernible image quality between the <1000 series to the 3000 and 5000 series.. To me it has a duller look. Colors and details are not as vibrant as the higher end model. 1080/60p is on the CMOS PX-5000 but it costs about $28K total (w/ VF, P2 cards).

I think the upcoming Black Magic URSA B4 mount can address resolution dilemma that long limit these 2/3" cams at 1080 max. But that is more like a 3.5K than a 4K camera. And I don't see strong support for shoulder mount yet. Mostly tripod only. But the brochure shows a shoulder option.

The biggest problem now is the native lens availability on these cinema 4K cams. There's simply no hand-held super telephoto (>1200 mm) optical stabilized lens on PL yet. If it exists, it will be in the six figures price range and very likely to weigh more than 25 lbs. Not something you can carry around or hand held all day in the field. But with a typical 2/3" 23x lens, one can get a pretty decent shooting range w/ out changing 2 lenses like the PL Fujinon Cabrio 19-90 & 85-300.
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Old September 12th, 2014, 04:19 PM   #8
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Re: Are there any 2/3" ENG Cams 1080@60p with no Jello Effect

Quote:
Originally Posted by Douglas Call View Post
Thanks that great info:

SStP SR-Lite 4:2:2 1920x1080/59.94i,50i,29.97P,23.98P,25P*
XAVC Intra 1920x1080/59.94i, 50i, 29.97P, 25P, 23.98P
1280x720/59.94P, 50P
XAVC Long 1920x1080/59.94i, 50i, 59.94P, 50P, 29.97P, 25P, 23.98P
1280x720/59.94P, 50P
MPEG HD422 1920x1080/59.94i, 50i, 29.97P, 25P, 23.98P
1280x720/59.94P, 50P, 29.97P, 25P, 23.98P
MPEG HD420 1920x1080/59.94i, 50i, 29.97P, 25P, 23.98P
1440x1080/59.94i, 50i
1280x720/59.94P, 50P

I guess it's Jello and 1080p at up to 240fps with the Panny.
There's an option board coming for the X500 that allows up to 120fps in 1080p.
__________________
I wait for the day cost-efficient global shutter 60fps capable CMOS sensors emerge for use on major manufacturers' cameras. (Sony, Canon, etc.) Rolling Shutters are a plague.
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Old September 18th, 2014, 02:28 PM   #9
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Re: Are there any 2/3" ENG Cams 1080@60p with no Jello Effect

Well thanks so much for all of your thoughts. It looks like the industry is moving towards a time when videographers will be more likely to run and gun with 4K cinematic style cameras and DSLR's. The era of the large cement bricks we called shoulder cams is coming to a close. Put another way if all you heard about at all the most recent NAB shows and other professional camera venues was about shoulder cams we wouldn't be surprised to see a great set of options available for this style camera. But since everything is 4K and either a DSLR or a global shuttered cinema type cam I guess that's what we'll have to make due with.
I can pick up one of the old 2/3" relics that shoots 1080p @ 60 and provides 422 since my old Ikegami HL-DV7AW DVCAM unit won't make it anymore. I'll just shoot run and gun with my Canon EOS 1DX through a BeachTek DXA-SLR ULTRA and be done with it. I'm hoping the next iteration of the Canon 1DX has global shutter. Oh Well the old days bring back good memories.
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Old September 22nd, 2014, 10:15 AM   #10
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Re: Are there any 2/3" ENG Cams 1080@60p with no Jello Effect

You are correct, the era of the "big cams" getting all of the attention is over. $10,000 is the new $20,000 and most folks do not want to invest over $10,000 (or under) in a camera these days. The market is moving way too fast for big purchases.

I also agree that it is frustrating to see the more expensive cameras often get the best features last. It does seem like single sensor cameras can do higher framerates better than the 3-chip varieties though.
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Old September 22nd, 2014, 10:52 AM   #11
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Re: Are there any 2/3" ENG Cams 1080@60p with no Jello Effect

Exactly small cams have all the fun and features big cam are just that big cams. Although it appears JVC is trying to address some of the shoulder cam new feature options by introducing their 4K GY-LSX1 4K shoulder-mount production camera with a Super 35mm sensor and PL lens mount.
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Old September 22nd, 2014, 02:44 PM   #12
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Re: Are there any 2/3" ENG Cams 1080@60p with no Jello Effect

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim Polster View Post
I also agree that it is frustrating to see the more expensive cameras often get the best features last. It does seem like single sensor cameras can do higher framerates better than the 3-chip varieties though.
Hmmm - I think that may be because the more expensive cameras are designed to a "no compromise" criteria. If it has a feature, it has to do it at full spec.

As example, think of framerates on the FS700. It does far higher framerates than most far more expensive cameras - but not at true HD. Even 120 and 240fps are only about 960x540 with strong aliasing, the higher framerates worse still.

For a camera in it's class that is more than acceptable, even gives an edge over the competition, it wouldn't be in a higher end camera. Whatever they do is expected to be full spec.
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Old September 23rd, 2014, 04:26 PM   #13
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Re: Are there any 2/3" ENG Cams 1080@60p with no Jello Effect

Indeed. For purists who accept no compromises in absolute quality, getting a cheaper cam will be disappointing. It appears too good to be true. How can it costs 1/4 or whatever the amount to the top of the line model? This is clearly the case with the Panasonic HPX-500 to 800 series vs. their 3000 & 5000 series. Hidden inside the cam are shortcuts and limitations that will unravel itself over time. There's just no escaping in paying the current market value price.

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Heath View Post
Hmmm - I think that may be because the more expensive cameras are designed to a "no compromise" criteria. If it has a feature, it has to do it at full spec.

As example, think of framerates on the FS700. It does far higher framerates than most far more expensive cameras - but not at true HD. Even 120 and 240fps are only about 960x540 with strong aliasing, the higher framerates worse still.

For a camera in it's class that is more than acceptable, even gives an edge over the competition, it wouldn't be in a higher end camera. Whatever they do is expected to be full spec.
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Old September 23rd, 2014, 07:19 PM   #14
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Re: Are there any 2/3" ENG Cams 1080@60p with no Jello Effect

Yes I'm sure that's all true. However the original question I posed is why with all this great quality we're talking about can't they provide the Broadcast Camera to also give an option for 1080p @ 60fps HD422 or 444 output on either a HD SDI (or dual HD SDI) and/or 3G-SDI outs. Like I said and apparently no one has quite picked up on what my original intent for the post was is that when a pro video shooter shoots one of the red carpet, celebrity, runway fashion shows etc type of events or interviews there are dual markets for that exact same footage. Sure you can send the 59.94i to the Entertainment Desk for broadcast but I'm saying for the amount they're charging for these cams they should also be to take footage in native 1080p @ 60fps at the same time. Then I can burn it to blu-ray or whatever else I want to do with it. So I'm not complaining that shoulder cams don't have good quality i'm complaining that in these modern times they're omitting to provide models that do include 1080p native out @ 60fps. And if they don't have CCD type image sensors they should have global shutters. It's nice for us to make excuses for the manufacturers but really they need to step up to the game in my opinion. Everything is about media in multiple markets not a single thing for one thing for one narrow codec.
If I'm the only one there to shoot an exclusive interview with Mick Jagger I'm not going to be holding two separate cameras with two sets of perfectly optimized codecs to get one in one format and one in another. No way it's expected that the independent broadcast shooter will use the footage in multiple ways.
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Old September 24th, 2014, 01:42 AM   #15
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Re: Are there any 2/3" ENG Cams 1080@60p with no Jello Effect

Quote:
Originally Posted by Douglas Call View Post
Like I said and apparently no one has quite picked up on what my original intent for the post
I think I did?

Sony SRW9000 or F23 / F35.

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