Was Asked to Shoot Commercial... - Page 2 at DVinfo.net

Go Back   DV Info Net > The Tools of DV and HD Production > Open DV Discussion

Open DV Discussion
For topics which don't fit into any of the other categories.


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old February 21st, 2016, 10:01 AM   #16
Inner Circle
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 2,699
Re: Was Asked to Shoot Commercial...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Watson View Post
Your 44B is a fine mic, but a wireless lav would put your interview subjects more at ease.
If we're talking about fixed interview situations, I disagree with that. A mic on a boom with a stand will give better quality sound and no likelihood of clothing rustle, and avoids the need to hide any cables within the interviewees clothing. I'd argue such is more likely to unsettle an interviewee than seeing mic stand and boom.

It becomes simply a matter of "please sit here", and once seated the mic etc should be out of their line of vision. Far less invasive than having to run cables behind clothing, and better audio quality as well.

If it has to be a personal mic then I'd also just tend to do it cabled - not radio - to avoid any worry of batteries going flat or RF interference. Radio mics are the way to go if the subject will be moving or a way away, but if static it's better to simply cable.
David Heath is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 21st, 2016, 03:59 PM   #17
Major Player
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Charleston, WV
Posts: 326
Re: Was Asked to Shoot Commercial...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Noa Put View Post
Have you ever shot with a c300? If not, are you sure you can get the best image out of this camera with no experience using it? Renting costs can also add up very quickly depending on how many days you need it.

On a job this important I would only use a camera that I know inside out which in your case would be the gh4, I think your boss forgets that the end result for a major part depends on the person behind the camera and eventhough the GH4 is not a c300II you can still make it look like a high end production.
Yea that's kind of what I'm afraid of. I've given him my concerns (and even mentioned that I've gotten a second opinion on a message board full of people I trust, you all) and he still seems to be leaning toward the c300. If that's the case, the plan will be to do as much as I can to make sure I know the camera in and out before we rent it. I want to know it well enough so that when I get it, I have no questions. I assume that will include watching a lot of tutorials on youtube and vimeo. I told him we need to rent it for a week. We will shoot this commercial in probably a day or two. I'll use that extra time to shoot a small project or so to make sure I know how to use it and hopefully that will help work the kinks out.

I mentioned that I was thinking more long term than just the commercial and if we just buy the metabones XL adapter instead, we can use that years down the line, but I don't know. I guess we will see what his final decision is here soon. I'll make sure I keep everyone updated as time goes on in this thread. Maybe it'll all come crashing down on me and my troubles will help some young videographer years from now haha.
Brock Burwell is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 21st, 2016, 04:02 PM   #18
Major Player
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Charleston, WV
Posts: 326
Re: Was Asked to Shoot Commercial...

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Heath View Post
If we're talking about fixed interview situations, I disagree with that. A mic on a boom with a stand will give better quality sound and no likelihood of clothing rustle, and avoids the need to hide any cables within the interviewees clothing. I'd argue such is more likely to unsettle an interviewee than seeing mic stand and boom.

It becomes simply a matter of "please sit here", and once seated the mic etc should be out of their line of vision. Far less invasive than having to run cables behind clothing, and better audio quality as well.

If it has to be a personal mic then I'd also just tend to do it cabled - not radio - to avoid any worry of batteries going flat or RF interference. Radio mics are the way to go if the subject will be moving or a way away, but if static it's better to simply cable.
I tend to agree with you David.

The original idea was to use a boom, but then I wondered if the quality would be better on a lav. I definitely didn't want it showing up in the shot, so I had planned on hiding it, but I definitely don't want to risk the chance of clothes rustling the mic. Any suggestions on what mic I should use for a boom? My boss is willing to rent some nice equipment for this so don't worry about price lol
Brock Burwell is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 21st, 2016, 04:03 PM   #19
Major Player
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Charleston, WV
Posts: 326
Re: Was Asked to Shoot Commercial...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Watson View Post
C300 has a crop factor of 1.6 which would make that 85mm a 135mm equivalent, which is kinda long for my taste. 50mm would be better.
I actually didn't even think about the crop factor of the c300. I assumed it was full frame. Good call. Looks like the 50 will be the way to go. I currently own the Sigma 50 1.4 and absolutely love it for stills. Wonder how good it would look compared to a cine 50mm?
Brock Burwell is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 21st, 2016, 06:01 PM   #20
Inner Circle
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 2,699
Re: Was Asked to Shoot Commercial...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brock Burwell View Post
The original idea was to use a boom, but then I wondered if the quality would be better on a lav.
Absolutely, definitively no! Expect quality to be noticeably better on a boom. I did once do a trial with both at the same time and switching between them the difference was very obvious. That's before we even start to think about clothing rustle. And when it comes to hiding mics it all starts to depend on what they're wearing, but you can expect a deadening, apart from the increased risk of clothing rustle.

Personal mics have their place when you have to have a fairly light kit, and with a radio transmitter when the shot needs to be wide or from far away. But for a static interview, I'd prefer a boom on stand every time if possible. (They also tend to handle head turns etc better. Just make sure the stand can't get accidentally kicked by their feet, the stand tends to transmit that up to the mic very well! :-) )

Personally I use a Sennheiser 416 ( Sennheiser MKH 416-P48U3 - Short Gun Microphone - for Broadcast, Film, Radio and Television ) but I'm sure there are alternatives.
David Heath is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 21st, 2016, 11:20 PM   #21
Trustee
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 1,076
Re: Was Asked to Shoot Commercial...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brock Burwell View Post
Any suggestions on what mic I should use for a boom? My boss is willing to rent some nice equipment for this so don't worry about price lol
Make him buy you a shotgun, don't rent one. Sennheiser MKE 600. The indy film folks use Rode NTG2. Either is fine.

If your personal preference is a shotgun on a boom, then use that. If your personal preference is a lav mic, use that. I guess I sort of agree with David that, side-by-side, the shotgun will sound better than the lav mic. I don't generally watch TV commercials side-by-side, I watch them as they roll past on the TV, and I have never thought "I bet they shot that with a lav mic. Fools."

You are going to have a LOT to worry about on shoot day. Every piece of equipment you've not used before is a potential point of failure. Stay as close to home as you can.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brock Burwell View Post
I actually didn't even think about the crop factor of the c300. I assumed it was full frame. Good call. Looks like the 50 will be the way to go. I currently own the Sigma 50 1.4 and absolutely love it for stills. Wonder how good it would look compared to a cine 50mm?
I can't say you'd see the difference between the Sigma 50 1.4 and a cine 50mm, but I'm the guy recommending a lav mic, so take my thoughts with a grain of salt.

I can't repeat enough how I've been in your shoes before, and every move I make would be to steer the big guy to buy stuff I can use all year long and not rent stuff I will have to take back in 5 days. Use your 50mm 1.4 and insist that you need a 85mm to go with it.

I just looked at lensrental price for a C300 for a week, it's $900. My $0.02 is I would sooner have a second brand new GH4 (that you are a pro at) for $1300 to use all year long. Show him some examples and tell him how great a reverse angle would look in these interviews.

That C300 will blow away your GH4 in a side-by-side test. If you don't plan on showing the TV commercial side-by-side with the same spot shot on a C300, shoot on what you know.
Mike Watson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 22nd, 2016, 10:00 AM   #22
Major Player
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: London, UK
Posts: 792
Re: Was Asked to Shoot Commercial...

Better sound won't make people think that the film sounds better. They will think it looks better. Sound is subliminal .

If you can, take some stress off yourself by finding someone who knows what they are doing to handle the sound. Leaving you to focus on the rest of the shoot.

Try to get a runner/assistant to help deal with the unexpected. You don't want to be having to find a glass of water when your interviewee starts croaking.

Use a boom as well as a lavaliiere. That will give you some redundancy in case something goes wrong. It also gives you a choice of recordings - sometimes one works better than another. Go for the best kit. Good sound equipment is cheap to rent.

Use the camera that you know best. This is not the time to be learning how to use a new camera. Try out any new techniques and equipment before the shoot.

Absolutely figure out why the film is being made. Focus completely on making it do the job as well as possible. Plan everything.

If you have done all this you can enjoy the shoot. If you enjoy it everyone else will too and that will be reflected in your film.
__________________
http://www.gooderick.com
Richard Gooderick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 22nd, 2016, 11:10 AM   #23
Inner Circle
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 2,699
Re: Was Asked to Shoot Commercial...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Watson View Post
I guess I sort of agree with David that, side-by-side, the shotgun will sound better than the lav mic. I don't generally watch TV commercials side-by-side, I watch them as they roll past on the TV, and I have never thought "I bet they shot that with a lav mic. Fools."
No, but there is such a thing as "audibility" which becomes important when people are listening in less than ideal conditions, or when someone's speech is a little difficult to understand. (people in the UK will remember all the "Jamaica Inn" fuss....?) And all else equal, the higher the quality, the better the audibility. By and large people don't notice the sound - except when there's a problem.

But it's not just for sheer quality I'd say go with the boom - it's the absence of worry about clothing rustle, no mic or cables visible, and not having to interfere with the subjects clothing to hide cabling.
David Heath is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 22nd, 2016, 12:28 PM   #24
Inner Circle
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Camas, WA, USA
Posts: 5,513
Re: Was Asked to Shoot Commercial...

Regarding the boom and lav - use both. Maybe the lav picks up clothing noise. Maybe the talent moves off axis from the boom. Maybe one of the channels overloads. Maybe one sounds better than the other due to the echo in the room. I assume that your recorder has at least two channels, right? Choose the best in post.

Are the interviews indoors or outdoors? If outdoors, you want a tube-interference shotgun (such as the Rode NTG3) and a wind-protection blimp. If indoors, you want a simple hyper- or super-cardioid like the AT4053b. If on a stand, you can even use a big, heavy studio large-condenser dialog mic as there's no boom operator to tire. And, yeah, use a wire, if seated.

Regarding the lens, your 50mm is probably fine. The main reason you would want a cine lens is for focus pulling or smooth iris adjustment. For sit down interviews, it should be set-and-forget.

Great point above about having a runner - or assistant producer. That person can ensure that the talent and next location are ready, people have signed releases, "bouncers" are ready to keep traffic from walking through, etc. Having separate director and DP/camera operator roles can be good too as one person sets the tripod, lighting, exposure, etc, while the other focuses on the actors. Hiring a grip truck with muscle helps as you can say, "move the light back a few feet" and it just happens. Finally, don't forget hair and makeup. They might not cake things on for this job, but they'll look for stray nose and ear hairs, blemishes, and check that the clothing doesn't have a distracting spot. They can add a bit of powder if you get a reflection from a balding head.

Spend some time at the rental shop. Get to know the people there. Ask to test the camera in their shop on a day when it's not rented out. Ask them questions when you get stuck. Do this mid-day as it can get busy early and late with pickups and returns. If you don't get in the way of paying customers, they should be happy to serve you and to convert you into a paying customer - especially with the school's name to back you up.

Also, ask them about crew. They'll likely have a list of contacts and recommendations for you to hire.

The key is to keep yourself from being the delay in the production. That will allow you to avoid stress and to see the big picture. It will also help you deal with the talent in a calm and grounded fashion. This is *so* important. Two of my most polished presenters (non actors) are two of the worst I've ever seen on screen. One gets overly intense and self aware on camera to the point that he gets creepy. The other becomes overly aware of his words and gets tongue-tied. But ask them to present themselves to a group and they are tops! (On the other hand, I know an intense introvert who delivered a ten minute technical talk to the camera flawlessly in one take. Go figure.)

So in the end, your most important job might be as counselor/psychologist/motivator for your talent. Assuming you do a decent job on picture and sound, the delivery on-screen will be the difference between a hit and a dud.

Okay, working with the actors is the second most important job. The most important is a good script/concept. Know your single message and deliver it. If anybody says, "we have three messages we want to deliver", tell them that they will need to pick one message - and that they should plan to make at least two additional commercials. :)
__________________
Jon Fairhurst
Jon Fairhurst is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 22nd, 2016, 07:26 PM   #25
Inner Circle
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Richmond, VA
Posts: 2,966
Re: Was Asked to Shoot Commercial...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brock Burwell View Post
My boss sounds like he doesn't want to spend more than $1,200-$1,500. I'm sure I can talk him into more, but that's just what he initially said.

If it helps, his vision for the commercial is all sit down interviews with little or maybe no b-roll.

Thanks everyone!
I'm willing to bet my 12th toe that he didn't get that video last year for 1500.00. If he did he got a deal. My advice is not to cheapen yourself. You should get paid for the time you invest. As other's have mentioned, it's important to schedule out a list of shots etc before you give a price. Otherwise, they'll be squeezing blood out of the proverbial turnip.

Be careful out there, take care of your business.
__________________
What happens if I push the 'Red' button?
Steven Davis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 23rd, 2016, 06:09 AM   #26
Trustee
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Austin, Texas
Posts: 1,706
Re: Was Asked to Shoot Commercial...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steven Davis View Post
I'm willing to bet my 12th toe that he didn't get that video last year for 1500.00.
He spend $40k on it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brock Burwell View Post
He came in my office yesterday and was telling me about how they spent $40k on a commercial last year and he feels like we could do it in house this year.
Gary Huff is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 23rd, 2016, 10:55 AM   #27
Major Player
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Charleston, WV
Posts: 326
Re: Was Asked to Shoot Commercial...

Thanks again to everyone for the advice.

It looks like we will be shooting this at a studio here in town, which really puts my mind at ease. They have lots of lights, soft boxes, etc that I will be able to use which will be nice. I'm headed down there today to take a look at the space to get a better idea of what we can expect when we go to film.

He wants to shoot on the week of March 14th, which seems a bit quick as my boss still doesn't have a script and hasn't even really nailed down a complete idea. I have a feeling I'm going to be the one who is putting everything together even though he is the one who told the administration we could do it in house. I'm looking forward to the challenge, but I just don't have a ton of experience in this type of setting.
Brock Burwell is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 23rd, 2016, 12:05 PM   #28
Inner Circle
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Richmond, VA
Posts: 2,966
Re: Was Asked to Shoot Commercial...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary Huff View Post
He spend $40k on it.
Thanks Gary, I was reading to fast apparently.
__________________
What happens if I push the 'Red' button?
Steven Davis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 23rd, 2016, 04:39 PM   #29
Trustee
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 1,076
Re: Was Asked to Shoot Commercial...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brock Burwell View Post
He wants to shoot on the week of March 14th, which seems a bit quick as my boss still doesn't have a script and hasn't even really nailed down a complete idea. I have a feeling I'm going to be the one who is putting everything together even though he is the one who told the administration we could do it in house. I'm looking forward to the challenge, but I just don't have a ton of experience in this type of setting.
The timeline always seems kinda tight. Especially for this spot, I think you'll be fine.
Mike Watson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 26th, 2016, 03:21 PM   #30
Major Player
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Charleston, WV
Posts: 326
Re: Was Asked to Shoot Commercial...

OK...Looks like after talking to my boss about the logistics of shooting with a c300 for a week, he has decided it would be best to buy the Metabones XL adapter and scrap renting a camera. I think the part that made him nervous was the idea that we had to shoot everything within a 7 day timeline and he didn't feel comfortable with that. He now has 4 separate commercials he wants to try to do and he didn't feel like he could fit them all in during the week (go figure).

So now we will be buying the metabones adapter (yay!) and I will be shooting the commercial with that and my GH4. We will see how it goes!
Brock Burwell is offline   Reply
Reply

DV Info Net refers all where-to-buy and where-to-rent questions exclusively to these trusted full line dealers and rental houses...

Professional Video
(800) 833-4801
Portland, OR

B&H Photo Video
(866) 521-7381
New York, NY

Z.G.C.
(973) 335-4460
Mountain Lakes, NJ

Abel Cine Tech
(888) 700-4416
N.Y. NY & L.A. CA

Precision Camera
(800) 677-1023
Austin, TX

DV Info Net also encourages you to support local businesses and buy from an authorized dealer in your neighborhood.
  You are here: DV Info Net > The Tools of DV and HD Production > Open DV Discussion

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

 



Google
 

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 01:41 PM.


DV Info Net -- Real Names, Real People, Real Info!
1998-2017 The Digital Video Information Network