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Old August 11th, 2016, 04:47 AM   #16
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Re: New and need help for son with Autism

Quote:
Originally Posted by Noa Put View Post
Personally I have the feeling that the journey is more important to you then the destination but I think if you want to reach that destination it's important to know what you will be shooting to be able to give you some advice which camera's might be best suited for that task, you are spending a lot of money so you better be well informed to be sure you will not be disappointed about your choice. I"m a weddingvideographer so for me lightsensitive camera's are important and I like them to be small so I can shoot without being noticed. A fs5 or ls300 would do for my purpose but I would prefer to have a panasonic gh4 and even smaller the panasonic gx80. Other weddingvideographers might prefer a dvx200 and put a videolight on it because they want to have a all in one solution and don't want to be messing with adding a nd-filter or buying separate lenses. If you shoot stage performances then a dvx200 alike camera would also be much better with a fixed lens that has a controlled variable zoom or if you want to deliver to a tv station then the codec is one of the factors that will determine what camera you need to buy etc...
Noa,

Thank you for the reply. I have thought about what you said, the journey is at least as important as the destination given Mackenzie's deficit. As I look ahead (and if things work out the way I hope they do), our shots will be nearly 100% outdoors during daylight, and because of who he is probably 100% from a tripod. I obviously want to apply "best practice" and produce the best visuals that we are able. That is one reason that I thought a 4K capable camera made sense because of the capability to downconvert to HD thus producing better visuals, and then of course one day being able to take advantage of 4K when it matures. PM if you wish, and we can discuss further.

Thanks,

Michael
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Old August 11th, 2016, 05:27 AM   #17
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Re: New and need help for son with Autism

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The cameras you list are all nice, but in my personal opinion they seem a little too advanced for a beginner.

I actually started back in 2012 and learnt on one of these:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Panasonic-1.../dp/B0031RG4EK

It has auto and limited manual. It allowed me to nail important things such as the story but also how to set white balance, why that's important, what zebras are, how to frame shots, interview technique.

Phillip Bloom famously shot a piece with a Barbie doll camera.

This was my first ever piece, shot exclusively with the camera I linked above:

http://media.ncl.ac.uk/pages/film/bbc11/#num=01&id=1105

(It's a little slow loading sorry)

It's dreadful! Look at the cars flying across the bridge at the start because I sped it up! But it's reasonably priced dreadful. If I had a more professional camera, would I have achieved the same standard of work? Probably not. In fact, there's a good chance it would be worse as I wouldn't have a clue what I was doing.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, don't splash out $$$$'s for an expensive camera if it's not what you need right now. There is a long way for him to go before he starts making money. Nail the basics first.

I hope that's useful, like others have said, I'm not trying to discourage you, I think it sounds ace and it's a wonderful business to be in. I love it! But we all have to start somewhere :) I've only been at this a few years and I only just got a HC-X1000 last year (I wouldn't recommend it btw) and I still have a long way to go. Hope that's helpful in some way!

Nathan,

Thank you for your reply and your insight ! I tried to watch your clip, but could not find it out of the 5 or 6 that were listed. I will try again later when I have a little more time.

You and others are right about starting with a less advanced camera if my son were like everyone else, however given the way he internalizes things and the with his deficit, it would be so much more of a task than simply teaching him on the camera we intend to use for production however difficult that will be in and of itself. It is tough to explain, but I have learned the hard way that sometimes (most times), that the easy way is not always the best way, especially when thinking beyond the present moment and looking into the future. I know it does not make sense and seems counter intuitive,but everything has to be thought of in terms of future application and appropriateness in a literal sense. I wish that this were not the case, but it is, so we have to make do with the tools and abilities that we have and try to maximize them.

Thanks for the insight on the HC-X1000. Every comment,suggestion, tip, bit of advice, or words of wisdom is helpful.

Thanks,

Michael
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Old August 11th, 2016, 07:29 AM   #18
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Re: New and need help for son with Autism

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Originally Posted by Michael L. Johnson View Post
Thank you for the reply and the welcome! It is funny that you mention B&H as I have been contemplating a trip there... I was not aware of Able Cine, and will have to check them out.
As a matter of disclosure, I should say that both companies are trusted site sponsors of DV Info Net who run banner ads here.

But that doesn't alter the fact that they are your best local options for hands-on demo and touch & try.

I also neglected to provide their links:

AbelCine is at AbelCine - Equipment Sales, Finance, Training, Rental, Tech Services

B&H is at B&H Photo Video Hours of Operation

I've linked to the B&H hours of operation page. You should check it before making a trip into town. That's because they sharply observe a holiday schedule which is completely orthodox to many folks, but might seem somewhat unusual to others who may be unfamiliar with the B&H family. Are they open? Know before you go. Check their hours of operation page.

Hope this helps,
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Old August 11th, 2016, 08:02 AM   #19
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Re: New and need help for son with Autism

For a beginner, I would stay away from any camera with removable lens, just adds a whole other layer of complexity. I did have a trial period with the JVC HM200 and not impressed - low light is very poor, and even in good lighting, the image gets darker as you zoom, so at telephoto end you are getting a much darker image even in daylight.

I've always been a Sony user for 24 years. A friend recently got the X70 and I've used it several times and the images are amazing!! That said, I'm quite experienced with Sony cameras and it took some effort to get used to working with the controls. Found that by programming several of the custom buttons to do different things made life easier, but again this was using my years of experience and poring over the manual to figure it out. My friend is not as adaptable as me and is struggling with it.

My personal preference is to have three lens rings to allow manual adjustment of zoom, focus, and iris. Those are important to me for smooth operation without jumping through hoops - so many new smaller cams have only a single ring (which maybe allows you to assign what it does), but then the other functions have to do done some other way which can be awkward.

Most of the cameras on your list on what I would consider "high end" for a beginner. I didn't see the Sony NX-100 on your list, which might be a decent pro-sumer model to start with, however it does not offer 4K. If you want to start simple, maybe a Sony CX900, but again, HD only. Both provide 24x zoom which might benefit your outdoor shooting.

That's my two cents

Thanks

Jeff Pulera
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Old August 11th, 2016, 08:01 PM   #20
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Re: New and need help for son with Autism

Jeff,

Thank you for the reply, and the information it contained. I have come to the conclusion as well that, at least for now, a camera with interchangeable lenses should be something that is better off considered in the future, and then only if great progress is made in our collective abilities. I gather you did not care very much for the JVC HM 200, and it sounds like the Sony X 70, in your opinion may not be the easiest to work with either.

I know that for our situation, just starting out with no experience, all of these cameras are going to pose elevated learning curves for us, but as I have said about my son's learning style, we will have to bite the bullet so to speak, and try to get a camera that hopefully we can manage to learn in a "reasonable"" time frame, and then progress ,after much practice to see what we can do.

I do wonder what the new Panasonic cameras (UX 180, UX 90) that are due out Oct.-Nov. will be like.
Again, thank you for your reply and information.

Michael
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Old August 11th, 2016, 09:07 PM   #21
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Re: New and need help for son with Autism

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Watson View Post
I would like to echo Chris's warm welcome. Also, I'd like to echo Steven's comments. He answered the least of your original questions, but his advice was much more helpful than the folks calling out specific camera models.

I am the king of analogies, both good and bad, so let me lay this one out here for you. I want to get my son involved in doing deliveries. What kind of vehicle should I buy?

As you may know about delivering things, "what kind of vehicle should I buy" is a crucial question. But ahead of that is... delivering pizzas, delivering mobile homes, or delivering mail? How much do your deliveries weigh? What kind of license would be needed? What kind of certifications? Who would the customers be? Do they have any money? Do they have existing delivery partners? If so, why would they choose me? If not, why would they choose me?

You seem a bit tight-lipped about what your niche is. Perhaps rightfully so, I have some "secret sauce" to what I do, and while I post here to help others, I stop short of telling people what sets me apart. At the same time, I can tell you that I do mainly corporate videography, selling video to companies advertising products B2B. Most of my work is shown via web (website, YouTube, social media, trade pub, etc), and a minority is shown direct to consumer on an iPad or a conference room projector. Similarly, the wedding video guys all have something that sets them apart. However, they are all selling the same thing. You don't have to give up your secret sauce, but give us some direction on what it is you want to do. It would help you far more than knowing what model number camera someone's favorite is.
Hey Mike:

In order to help clarify, as I have said, our shots will be virtually 100% outdoors during daylight hours, and given the way Mackenzie operates, just as likely 100% from a tripod. I do have a definite niche in mind and it (I think) will be our main area of focus mainly because of his interest, but there are other things which I may "suggest" to him. One of those things may be filming tugboats pushing barges on the inland waterways (his grandfather worked on such a boat for 40 years ending as a captain). That is one example, but we will not be straying very far from that example. Using this example, outside of the basic filming, and possibly a narrative, there is not much more of a "story" to tell especially when compared to other things being filmed. I know that our lessor abilities and experience preclude us for the foreseeable future from doing anything beyond basic film making.

I am hoping that my son can do this, but until we try, I have no idea if he can. I think he can, but it really is a roll of the dice, though I will do everything in my power to ensure his success.

Thanks again for your input.

Michael
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Old August 11th, 2016, 09:16 PM   #22
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Re: New and need help for son with Autism

Sounds like he may want to look at doing stock video. If you are not familiar with that check out pond5.com.
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Old August 11th, 2016, 09:41 PM   #23
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Re: New and need help for son with Autism

Mark,

Thank you for the reply . No, will not consider stock footage. As Noa said earlier in this thread, the journey is as important as the destination. It is my belief that my son (and frankly everyone) should push the boundaries of the possible. Again, though I think that he can do this, I am not certain, and will not know unless we try. Thanks again for the reply.

Michael
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Old August 12th, 2016, 01:52 AM   #24
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Re: New and need help for son with Autism

Yes my original reply (second one in the thread) was based on the assumption that you were referring to going into general video production of one kind or another. As things unfolded it is now pretty clear that you have a unique singular idea in mind. You are protecting it with cloak and dagger. That is perfectly fine, we get it. I am not sure you understand several people have said we could serve you far better with details of the shooting scenario. As Mike said, we don't need to know your secret sauce, You can make up any parallel scenario you want. You are asking for advice. If this outdoor shooting scenario your referring to is a field team sport compared to man on the street interviews our advise would be dramatically different for those two scenarios.

I think you need to help us help you. You are already talking to several busy, professional, videographers with decades of experience. There are probably others that would be happy to help but some of them are not going to waste their valuable time on a lack of details. There are a lot of unwritten rules on forums and they change from one to the next. This is the most genuine board I have ever seen. My advise would be to let you know that a cloak of total secrecy and requests for PMs will not become as productive for you as this board can be. It is a great forum, welcome aboard. Please keep the secret sauce, but help us help you.

Kind Regards,

Steve
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Old August 12th, 2016, 02:35 AM   #25
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Re: New and need help for son with Autism

Is the hope to make money from this venture, or is it a hobby for you/your son? The answer will help guide my advice going forward.
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Old August 12th, 2016, 03:20 AM   #26
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Re: New and need help for son with Autism

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steven Digges View Post
I think you need to help us help you.
Steve is right, alltough I and probably others won't mind answering through a PM you will be much better served if it's discussed on this forum as people you have not reached out to personally will jump in as well to give you advise based on their experience. You will get different opinions but eventually it will be up to you to decide which path to follow.

I think you don't need to explain any further about the challenges your son and yourself will be facing as that is already clear but now you need to be focusing on the tools you will be using and if you want advice you need to give us something to work with, so far we know it has to be a camera that has a good enough all auto functionality but that it must have manual functionality you would expect from a professional video camera and that you are only going to shoot in good light conditions and on a tripod.

You don't need to be very specific about what you are going to shoot but you could say if you are going to shoot interviews, or sports, or wildlife. In your camerachoice their is a difference between fixed lens camera's and camera's you have to buy lenses for. The fixed lens camera's are usually easier to work with and are fully functional after you buy them, camera's with exchangeable lenses need an extra investment on lenses and can need extra accessories (mainly dslr's) to make them production ready, they do give you more creative possibilities ranging from a very shallow dof (depending on sensor size), low light capabilities, lens choices that enable you to shoot macro, fisheye, tele but they are also more difficult to deal with then a regular videocamera with a fixed lens.
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Old August 12th, 2016, 01:20 PM   #27
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Re: New and need help for son with Autism

Let me pop in with a couple "secrets"... many of us change cameras quite often, because the tech changes rapidly. We get frustrated with feature additions/subtractions/changes, it's 100% normal... I read online reviews and see the "reviewers" struggling with things because they don't know a specific camera brand well enough to understand how to get the most out of it... I know Sony gear fairly well, and am a bit "lost" on a Panasonic gear, despite having owned a few, for instance. If WE struggle sometimes, it's 100% expected and OK if your son does <wink>.


The basics of camera use stay the same - shutter speed, iris/gain, white balance, etc. are camera independent - but in order to "work" with any camera and get the best out of it, it's important to know the fundamentals of the "mechanical operation"- most of it can be picked up from photography sites, books or You Tube videos for beginners. Knowing the fundamentals will ALWAYS give you and your son something to start with, whatever camera(s) you eventually shoot with. As is oft repeated here, CONTENT is what makes the video (or stills) interesting to a larger (monetize-able) audience, NOT what "gear" was used to shoot it. Look at "viral videos"... most look pretty bad, but the CONTENT is what gets the hits/followers/watchers.



Keep in mind to find the learning style that is best for your son, that's important for "learners", regardless of their abilities - you can turn someone off fast, regardless of interest, if you don't find their particular learning style (some like to read, others see pictures or video, others like "hands on"). You probably already have some feel for how your son best absorbs information and new concepts. Once the concepts are part of his skill set, figuring out which button(s) to press won't be too hard, but we ALL struggle with it sometimes!


Keep in mind that "grip" (supporting "stuff") can be almost as expensive as the camera, things like a tripod can be as tricky as the camera! There's a whole section on such things here at DVi! I have monopods that are more expensive than the cameras I used to shoot with (my tripods are relatively cheap but adequate for my needs)....and a large collection of "toys" for different shooting scenarios...


As far as camera considerations, most of us who have shot 4K find it to be well worth the effort, but it does require knowing those "basics" to get the most out of it. Depending on your subject matter, you will want to consider the lens zoom range (shooting things across a harbor is entirely different from shooting interviews, for instance). Some cameras just "feel" more natural for the user (and every user is a "bit" different, so... different cameras!).

I shoot an AX100 (X70's "prosumer" li'l brother), the DSC-RX10M2 (same general "guts" as the AX100, but a newer sensor, in a "still" camera format that is also good for video). The RX10M3 is on my "buy list", for the longer lens range. I also have an RX100M4 for close in, casual use, as it's easier to have with me and again shares similar "guts" with the RX10M2. I'm pretty comfortable getting what I want out of those cameras, and the prices aren't outrageous. I would say that these cameras felt very "right" to me from the minute I got them, so I shot more stills and footage.- you are correct that having a camera that "fits" for your son will be helpful for him!

A first generation RX10 (doesn't have 4K, and a few other minor things) can be had for relatively cheap (used) and would shoot excellent HD to get you started... I upgraded mine, but still really nice cameras.

With that, I'll repeat one other secret - it's the camera you HAVE that gets the shot, not the one you're researching... you can analyze gear almost forever, but the camera in the hand is the one that counts, even if it's a cell phone! Once your son "gets the bug", you can always upgrade and sell the "entry level" stuff - that's probably how every one of us here started... we picked up a camera, and somehow became enchanted by "capturing" a moment (or a "few", with video), and now we see things "through a lens"... hopefully your son will catch the same "bug" we all suffer from and learn to express things in his own unique and special way!

Sorry for the length, but hopefully these thoughts will be helpful in your quest - we all want the best for our kids, and it's always a challenge - your son is lucky to have a dad who is "involved", just remember to let him find his own way too... I have three "normal" (relatively anyway...) kids, and they all have their own unique ways of seeing things and dealing with this thing we call life... sometimes you just have to be supportive and hang on!
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Old August 12th, 2016, 04:21 PM   #28
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Re: New and need help for son with Autism

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steven Digges View Post
Yes my original reply (second one in the thread) was based on the assumption that you were referring to going into general video production of one kind or another. As things unfolded it is now pretty clear that you have a unique singular idea in mind. You are protecting it with cloak and dagger. That is perfectly fine, we get it. I am not sure you understand several people have said we could serve you far better with details of the shooting scenario. As Mike said, we don't need to know your secret sauce, You can make up any parallel scenario you want. You are asking for advice. If this outdoor shooting scenario your referring to is a field team sport compared to man on the street interviews our advise would be dramatically different for those two scenarios.

I think you need to help us help you. You are already talking to several busy, professional, videographers with decades of experience. There are probably others that would be happy to help but some of them are not going to waste their valuable time on a lack of details. There are a lot of unwritten rules on forums and they change from one to the next. This is the most genuine board I have ever seen. My advise would be to let you know that a cloak of total secrecy and requests for PMs will not become as productive for you as this board can be. It is a great forum, welcome aboard. Please keep the secret sauce, but help us help you.

Kind Regards,

Steve
Steve,

Thank you for the reply ! I am sorry for the consternation that my hesitation at full disclosure has caused you and other members of this message board. My only defense is my new status and not fully understanding of what you guys needed in order to give me the help, tips, advice, etc., that I am seeking. My son will be filming (hopefully) big rig trucks, semi-tractor trailers, or whatever else they are known by. He has an affinity for them, and has had since he was small. He owns several DVD's of these trucks, and since he is highly motivated by the subject, I can use the DVD's that he owns as a model of how things need to look. It is my belief that with his high motivation factor, that it will ease the long learning and practicing road that is ahead before we ever contemplate beginning doing any production work.

Again, I am sorry for any ill feelings I may have inadvertently caused, and I really am thankful for all the comments that I have received. If any other information is needed to help you and others to help me, please let me know.

Thanks,

Michael
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Old August 12th, 2016, 04:38 PM   #29
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Re: New and need help for son with Autism

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Watson View Post
Is the hope to make money from this venture, or is it a hobby for you/your son? The answer will help guide my advice going forward.
Mike,

I would not describe it as a hobby, and yes would certainly like to make at least some income (at least to offset expenses). I guess I would describe it as a way and or a hope to give my son a purpose in and for his life. If it can generate income, that would be great and we will be working toward that goal. As it stands now, he is looking at life that will be in and out of adult day care. I'd like to push him a little farther than that, if I can. I would like, as much as possible ,for him to feel the same sense of accomplishment and satisfaction that most of us feel in our jobs. Yet, he is most definitely not a people person so his skills are more regimented to doing things on his own, somewhat apart from others. As i have said, if we can be successful, it is also my hope that he can be an inspiration, an example, even perhaps a role model for others that are like him and their families, of what can be possible.

Again, thank you for the reply.

Michael
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Old August 12th, 2016, 04:54 PM   #30
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Re: New and need help for son with Autism

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Blackhurst View Post
Let me pop in with a couple "secrets"... many of us change cameras quite often, because the tech changes rapidly. We get frustrated with feature additions/subtractions/changes, it's 100% normal... I read online reviews and see the "reviewers" struggling with things because they don't know a specific camera brand well enough to understand how to get the most out of it... I know Sony gear fairly well, and am a bit "lost" on a Panasonic gear, despite having owned a few, for instance. If WE struggle sometimes, it's 100% expected and OK if your son does <wink>.


The basics of camera use stay the same - shutter speed, iris/gain, white balance, etc. are camera independent - but in order to "work" with any camera and get the best out of it, it's important to know the fundamentals of the "mechanical operation"- most of it can be picked up from photography sites, books or You Tube videos for beginners. Knowing the fundamentals will ALWAYS give you and your son something to start with, whatever camera(s) you eventually shoot with. As is oft repeated here, CONTENT is what makes the video (or stills) interesting to a larger (monetize-able) audience, NOT what "gear" was used to shoot it. Look at "viral videos"... most look pretty bad, but the CONTENT is what gets the hits/followers/watchers.



Keep in mind to find the learning style that is best for your son, that's important for "learners", regardless of their abilities - you can turn someone off fast, regardless of interest, if you don't find their particular learning style (some like to read, others see pictures or video, others like "hands on"). You probably already have some feel for how your son best absorbs information and new concepts. Once the concepts are part of his skill set, figuring out which button(s) to press won't be too hard, but we ALL struggle with it sometimes!


Keep in mind that "grip" (supporting "stuff") can be almost as expensive as the camera, things like a tripod can be as tricky as the camera! There's a whole section on such things here at DVi! I have monopods that are more expensive than the cameras I used to shoot with (my tripods are relatively cheap but adequate for my needs)....and a large collection of "toys" for different shooting scenarios...


As far as camera considerations, most of us who have shot 4K find it to be well worth the effort, but it does require knowing those "basics" to get the most out of it. Depending on your subject matter, you will want to consider the lens zoom range (shooting things across a harbor is entirely different from shooting interviews, for instance). Some cameras just "feel" more natural for the user (and every user is a "bit" different, so... different cameras!).

I shoot an AX100 (X70's "prosumer" li'l brother), the DSC-RX10M2 (same general "guts" as the AX100, but a newer sensor, in a "still" camera format that is also good for video). The RX10M3 is on my "buy list", for the longer lens range. I also have an RX100M4 for close in, casual use, as it's easier to have with me and again shares similar "guts" with the RX10M2. I'm pretty comfortable getting what I want out of those cameras, and the prices aren't outrageous. I would say that these cameras felt very "right" to me from the minute I got them, so I shot more stills and footage.- you are correct that having a camera that "fits" for your son will be helpful for him!

A first generation RX10 (doesn't have 4K, and a few other minor things) can be had for relatively cheap (used) and would shoot excellent HD to get you started... I upgraded mine, but still really nice cameras.

With that, I'll repeat one other secret - it's the camera you HAVE that gets the shot, not the one you're researching... you can analyze gear almost forever, but the camera in the hand is the one that counts, even if it's a cell phone! Once your son "gets the bug", you can always upgrade and sell the "entry level" stuff - that's probably how every one of us here started... we picked up a camera, and somehow became enchanted by "capturing" a moment (or a "few", with video), and now we see things "through a lens"... hopefully your son will catch the same "bug" we all suffer from and learn to express things in his own unique and special way!

Sorry for the length, but hopefully these thoughts will be helpful in your quest - we all want the best for our kids, and it's always a challenge - your son is lucky to have a dad who is "involved", just remember to let him find his own way too... I have three "normal" (relatively anyway...) kids, and they all have their own unique ways of seeing things and dealing with this thing we call life... sometimes you just have to be supportive and hang on!
Dave,

Thank you for the kind and very informative reply ! I do learn something every time I come to the message board through your efforts and those of the other members, and for that, I am highly appreciative.

I have tried in my inadequate way to describe my son's challenging learning methodology and the reason(s) why I will have to do things the way that I will. He is a very visual learner, with I think a near photographic memory, the challenge is breaking down a new skill to be learned into the proper small steps that he needs to internalize them. Once he has internalized something, it is there. As I mentioned to Steve in another post, my son has a model to refer to, and with his motivation properly directed, I do believe success is obtainable even if it takes a while.

Thanks again for your insights.

Michael
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