How does a filmmaker decide which aspect ratio to shoot in?

Ryan Elder · July 15th, 2019, 05:33 PM

Oh okay. I thought that Alien and Die Hard maybe would have benefited by cutting off the sides of the framing more, making the sides of the frame, the unknown from which the threat can appear.

The script I'm planning to direct is a suspense thriller kind of similar in tone and atmosphere to a movie like The Silence of the Lambs or Seven.

The Silence of the Lambs was 1.85, and Seven was 2.39, and the genre and type of feel of the movie seems very similar, at least to me.

So I feel therefore, I am not sure which one to pick. I read that in 2.39:1 is more of a challenge cause you have to find more set pieces to fill the wider frame with but is that true, especially if in 1.85, you have to back up the camera further to fit everyone in for lots of shots, which means that you will see a lot of background still anyway?

Brian Drysdale · July 16th, 2019, 12:30 AM

Wider will usually need more filling, plus it can be harder to get the light stands etc out of shot.

I suspect you'll just have to go with your gut feeling regarding the aspect radio , because people here can't provide that for you. Only you know the locations, story, action and feel needed and asking more questions won't provide the answers. You should discuss it with your DP, since they are the person who will need to frame your film..

Paul R Johnson · July 16th, 2019, 01:19 AM

I'm not sure about everyone else, but when I'm ever in a position to make a mistake in the future, I cheat.

If I do not know what format to use, then I shoot taller and frame with the notion of possible cropping later. I tend to zoom out a little wider, and leave some space at the sides. In practice I end up going in a little in the edit - with of course the ability to pan and tilt a little too. in a real movie this would be planned in advance. If I cannot do this, then I shoot knowing it can be adjusted. I also do it when there are booms as the occasional dip happens, so framing a tad wide and not revealing this as an 'unnecessary' feature to the sound folk gives me again, more options. they have their invisible barrier not to cross just a little further away than need be - but they don't need to know that.

Anecdote time. What always surprises me is that people seem afraid to ask questions. I do it all the time. working with some UK big names last week, being old works for me. I was able to go up to the female and quietly explain that her very short skirt would be tricky in the next sequence. She looked me in the eyes and said really, why? I explained and it seemed nobody had mentioned exactly what was coming next. She was very appreciative, and the Director blocked around 'my' problem. She was really grateful, because she told me that nobody would have told her, in case she was cross. I told her that all I cared about was making people look the best I could, and even if she'd been angry I needed to tell her. I got a hug, and a sudden genuine result.

Somewhat annoyingly though - she has also decided I look like a friend of hers - Pete Waterman, so she's calling me Pete now.

Brian Drysdale · July 16th, 2019, 01:34 AM

Yes, today you don't have to shoot with anamorphic lenses with 2.39;1, you can use "flat" lenses, so decisions can be postponed or changed at a later stage by cropping.

I should qualify "asking more questions won't provide the answers" by "asking more questions here", since we have so many unknowns.

The safe answer is to shoot 16:9, but that may not be the ideal for this particular film, although you may be the only member of the audience who knows.

BTW, You don't need short skirts to have an issue, Female MPs should take care when sitting behind the Prime Minister in the UK parliament when the Prime Minister stands at the dispatch box.

David Dalton · July 16th, 2019, 02:58 AM

What was Fritz Lang's quip on Cinemascope? "...good only for snakes and funerals"
.
There was much discussion in the film industry when in early 1953 Fox announced that it would film ALL future productions in Cinemascope (which never happened). How to fill the wide screen? It's interesting to look at some of the earlier Cinemascope films to see how this was achieved.

Ryan Elder · July 16th, 2019, 06:56 AM

Oh okay. Well as far as framing goes, I've always felt more comfortable trying to frame it right during production, rather than pulling back and allowing more room. But that is just what I've been comfortable with so far.

When it comes to filling in space, here is a sample from an earlier short film I did, where I decided to shoot it in 2.39:1. I didn't do the shooting, just the directing:

Do you think that there is more deadspace that needs filling compared to 1.85 though? For example, the first office scene, at 0:34 into the clip, you see a guy at his desk and there is a printer behind him on the shelf. If I shot it at 1.85, the frame would be taller and you might see what is on the shelf above him more in comparison.

You might also see more of his desk at 1.85, and we would have had to decorate the desk more probably. So does 1.85 really hide more space to fill, as people say, compared to 2.39?

Brian Drysdale · July 16th, 2019, 07:27 AM

It depends what you mean by "dead space" a blank, white wall may mean more than the wall covered in decoration in story/character terms. .

Paul R Johnson · July 16th, 2019, 09:42 AM

For what it's worth, it doesn't look like a movie, it looks like TV. Headroom seems to be a problem in that you have a very tight top to bottom crop. For me the worst thing is stability, the sequence on the stairs wobbles and in wide screen it's very obvious. The over the shoulder shot so common in TV doesn't work very well in widescreen either - too much of what we don't want to see. Not sure if it helps.

Ryan Elder · July 16th, 2019, 06:06 PM

Oh okay thanks. I didn't think the OTS shot looked like TV though, cause Michael Mann used them a lot in Heat and Collateral and those movies were shot in 2.39:1. But I didn't think it looked like TV since the OTS shots on TV are 16:9 almost always, unless I missed something?

Yeah I agree about the shakiness in the staircase sequence, hence why I want to use a gimbal for future projects for sure, when tracking along with actors.

By deadspace, I mean space that probably could be filled with something so it's not so blank, if that makes sense?

Paul R Johnson · July 16th, 2019, 11:54 PM

TV is not just a frame size. It's the look and the feel. On to we often have film style programmes, usually drama, and it looks different. Over the years many look like TV. Dr Who, a wonderfully British, quaint concept has been on TV for ever and a movie a few times. Everything isndifferent. Movies can be big in every department. Is stranger things a movie? It's shot like one. It looks like one, but it's shown on TV?

Brian Drysdale · July 17th, 2019, 12:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryan Wray

By deadspace, I mean space that probably could be filled with something so it's not so blank, if that makes sense?

No, everything provides information to the audience, so it must be there for a reason. Filling for the sake of it can just produce a cluttered frame, which may say that this character has a lot of clutter in their life. While a bare white background may suggest that their life cold and clinical or that they're in an institution that controls their lives.

Ryan Elder · July 17th, 2019, 04:01 PM

Oh okay, that makes sense. There are also scenes in my script where I have people protesting in the streets for example. If I were to shoot those scenes, in 2.39, I would probably need more extras compared to 16:9, I am guessing, and therefore 16:9 could save money, on extras, if that sounds right?

Brian Drysdale · July 17th, 2019, 04:11 PM

Use as many extras as you can afford, it's up on the screen, save on what you can't see on screen (except food for the cast and crew),

Ryan Elder · July 17th, 2019, 08:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul R Johnson

TV is not just a frame size. It's the look and the feel. On to we often have film style programmes, usually drama, and it looks different. Over the years many look like TV. Dr Who, a wonderfully British, quaint concept has been on TV for ever and a movie a few times. Everything isndifferent. Movies can be big in every department. Is stranger things a movie? It's shot like one. It looks like one, but it's shown on TV?

Oh okay thanks. What am I doing that makes my OTS shots look like TV OTS shots, rather than movie OTS shots?

Brian Drysdale · July 18th, 2019, 01:18 AM

One difference is that "Heat" is shot with Panavision anamorphic lenses, so for the same angle of view, they will be using a lens with double the focal length that you will be using, if shooting with flat lenses. For large screen shots, I would tend to go one wider than for TV eg MCU instead of a CU, although perhaps less of a thing today with large screen TV compared to the smaller CRT sets.

July 15th, 2019, 05:33 PM	#46
Ryan Elder also known as Ryan Wray Join Date: Nov 2017 Location: Saskatoon, Canada Posts: 2,880	Re: How does a filmmaker decide which aspect ratio to shoot in? Oh okay. I thought that Alien and Die Hard maybe would have benefited by cutting off the sides of the framing more, making the sides of the frame, the unknown from which the threat can appear. The script I'm planning to direct is a suspense thriller kind of similar in tone and atmosphere to a movie like The Silence of the Lambs or Seven. The Silence of the Lambs was 1.85, and Seven was 2.39, and the genre and type of feel of the movie seems very similar, at least to me. So I feel therefore, I am not sure which one to pick. I read that in 2.39:1 is more of a challenge cause you have to find more set pieces to fill the wider frame with but is that true, especially if in 1.85, you have to back up the camera further to fit everyone in for lots of shots, which means that you will see a lot of background still anyway?

July 16th, 2019, 12:30 AM	#47
Brian Drysdale Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Belfast, UK Posts: 6,143	Re: How does a filmmaker decide which aspect ratio to shoot in? Wider will usually need more filling, plus it can be harder to get the light stands etc out of shot. I suspect you'll just have to go with your gut feeling regarding the aspect radio , because people here can't provide that for you. Only you know the locations, story, action and feel needed and asking more questions won't provide the answers. You should discuss it with your DP, since they are the person who will need to frame your film..

July 16th, 2019, 01:19 AM	#48
Paul R Johnson Inner Circle Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Lowestoft - UK Posts: 4,015	Re: How does a filmmaker decide which aspect ratio to shoot in? I'm not sure about everyone else, but when I'm ever in a position to make a mistake in the future, I cheat. If I do not know what format to use, then I shoot taller and frame with the notion of possible cropping later. I tend to zoom out a little wider, and leave some space at the sides. In practice I end up going in a little in the edit - with of course the ability to pan and tilt a little too. in a real movie this would be planned in advance. If I cannot do this, then I shoot knowing it can be adjusted. I also do it when there are booms as the occasional dip happens, so framing a tad wide and not revealing this as an 'unnecessary' feature to the sound folk gives me again, more options. they have their invisible barrier not to cross just a little further away than need be - but they don't need to know that. Anecdote time. What always surprises me is that people seem afraid to ask questions. I do it all the time. working with some UK big names last week, being old works for me. I was able to go up to the female and quietly explain that her very short skirt would be tricky in the next sequence. She looked me in the eyes and said really, why? I explained and it seemed nobody had mentioned exactly what was coming next. She was very appreciative, and the Director blocked around 'my' problem. She was really grateful, because she told me that nobody would have told her, in case she was cross. I told her that all I cared about was making people look the best I could, and even if she'd been angry I needed to tell her. I got a hug, and a sudden genuine result. Somewhat annoyingly though - she has also decided I look like a friend of hers - Pete Waterman, so she's calling me Pete now.

July 16th, 2019, 01:34 AM	#49
Brian Drysdale Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Belfast, UK Posts: 6,143	Re: How does a filmmaker decide which aspect ratio to shoot in? Yes, today you don't have to shoot with anamorphic lenses with 2.39;1, you can use "flat" lenses, so decisions can be postponed or changed at a later stage by cropping. I should qualify "asking more questions won't provide the answers" by "asking more questions here", since we have so many unknowns. The safe answer is to shoot 16:9, but that may not be the ideal for this particular film, although you may be the only member of the audience who knows. BTW, You don't need short skirts to have an issue, Female MPs should take care when sitting behind the Prime Minister in the UK parliament when the Prime Minister stands at the dispatch box.

July 16th, 2019, 02:58 AM	#50
David Dalton Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Uckfield, UK Posts: 69	Re: How does a filmmaker decide which aspect ratio to shoot in? What was Fritz Lang's quip on Cinemascope? "...good only for snakes and funerals" . There was much discussion in the film industry when in early 1953 Fox announced that it would film ALL future productions in Cinemascope (which never happened). How to fill the wide screen? It's interesting to look at some of the earlier Cinemascope films to see how this was achieved.

July 16th, 2019, 06:56 AM	#51
Ryan Elder also known as Ryan Wray Join Date: Nov 2017 Location: Saskatoon, Canada Posts: 2,880	Re: How does a filmmaker decide which aspect ratio to shoot in? Oh okay. Well as far as framing goes, I've always felt more comfortable trying to frame it right during production, rather than pulling back and allowing more room. But that is just what I've been comfortable with so far. When it comes to filling in space, here is a sample from an earlier short film I did, where I decided to shoot it in 2.39:1. I didn't do the shooting, just the directing: 2.39 example - YouTube Do you think that there is more deadspace that needs filling compared to 1.85 though? For example, the first office scene, at 0:34 into the clip, you see a guy at his desk and there is a printer behind him on the shelf. If I shot it at 1.85, the frame would be taller and you might see what is on the shelf above him more in comparison. You might also see more of his desk at 1.85, and we would have had to decorate the desk more probably. So does 1.85 really hide more space to fill, as people say, compared to 2.39?

July 16th, 2019, 07:27 AM	#52
Brian Drysdale Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Belfast, UK Posts: 6,143	Re: How does a filmmaker decide which aspect ratio to shoot in? It depends what you mean by "dead space" a blank, white wall may mean more than the wall covered in decoration in story/character terms. . Manhattan (4/10) Movie CLIP - I Can't Have This Argument (1979) HD - YouTube

July 16th, 2019, 09:42 AM	#53
Paul R Johnson Inner Circle Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Lowestoft - UK Posts: 4,015	Re: How does a filmmaker decide which aspect ratio to shoot in? For what it's worth, it doesn't look like a movie, it looks like TV. Headroom seems to be a problem in that you have a very tight top to bottom crop. For me the worst thing is stability, the sequence on the stairs wobbles and in wide screen it's very obvious. The over the shoulder shot so common in TV doesn't work very well in widescreen either - too much of what we don't want to see. Not sure if it helps.

July 16th, 2019, 06:06 PM	#54
Ryan Elder also known as Ryan Wray Join Date: Nov 2017 Location: Saskatoon, Canada Posts: 2,880	Re: How does a filmmaker decide which aspect ratio to shoot in? Oh okay thanks. I didn't think the OTS shot looked like TV though, cause Michael Mann used them a lot in Heat and Collateral and those movies were shot in 2.39:1. But I didn't think it looked like TV since the OTS shots on TV are 16:9 almost always, unless I missed something? Yeah I agree about the shakiness in the staircase sequence, hence why I want to use a gimbal for future projects for sure, when tracking along with actors. By deadspace, I mean space that probably could be filled with something so it's not so blank, if that makes sense?

July 16th, 2019, 11:54 PM	#55
Paul R Johnson Inner Circle Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Lowestoft - UK Posts: 4,015	Re: How does a filmmaker decide which aspect ratio to shoot in? TV is not just a frame size. It's the look and the feel. On to we often have film style programmes, usually drama, and it looks different. Over the years many look like TV. Dr Who, a wonderfully British, quaint concept has been on TV for ever and a movie a few times. Everything isndifferent. Movies can be big in every department. Is stranger things a movie? It's shot like one. It looks like one, but it's shown on TV?

July 17th, 2019, 04:01 PM	#57
Ryan Elder also known as Ryan Wray Join Date: Nov 2017 Location: Saskatoon, Canada Posts: 2,880	Re: How does a filmmaker decide which aspect ratio to shoot in? Oh okay, that makes sense. There are also scenes in my script where I have people protesting in the streets for example. If I were to shoot those scenes, in 2.39, I would probably need more extras compared to 16:9, I am guessing, and therefore 16:9 could save money, on extras, if that sounds right?

July 17th, 2019, 04:11 PM	#58
Brian Drysdale Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Belfast, UK Posts: 6,143	Re: How does a filmmaker decide which aspect ratio to shoot in? Use as many extras as you can afford, it's up on the screen, save on what you can't see on screen (except food for the cast and crew),

July 18th, 2019, 01:18 AM	#60
Brian Drysdale Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Belfast, UK Posts: 6,143	Re: How does a filmmaker decide which aspect ratio to shoot in? One difference is that "Heat" is shot with Panavision anamorphic lenses, so for the same angle of view, they will be using a lens with double the focal length that you will be using, if shooting with flat lenses. For large screen shots, I would tend to go one wider than for TV eg MCU instead of a CU, although perhaps less of a thing today with large screen TV compared to the smaller CRT sets. Attached Thumbnails Last edited by Brian Drysdale; July 18th, 2019 at 03:05 AM.