Call for a challenge: 1CCD-HDV vs 3CCD-DV at DVinfo.net

Alarik Miikael · February 12th, 2006, 04:16 PM

Hi all,
after doing some preliminary tests I've come with the idea that
movies recorder with 1ccd-hdv (jvc hd1 for example) are better
than ones recorder with 3ccd-dv (sony,panasonic whatever)
in terms of image quality as seen on final product that is a DVD 4:3

Unfortunatly i dont have raw footage from those cameras,
if someone can, please send me some footage from those two cameras
(possibly shoot on a park in a sunny day) and iìll do the test.

bye
Alarik

Ash Greyson · February 13th, 2006, 02:13 AM

No point... there will less noise but less color in the 1CCD... there will be better range but a need for more light on the 3CCD.

There are very very few scenarios where a 1CCD camera could perform equal to a 3CCD camera assumed the CCDs are of similar size. Here you are talking HD so, the bottom line, what is more important? Rez or accurate color? I bet most people would prefer the image from a progressive 3CCD DV cam like the XL2/DVX which both outperform the 1CCD HDV cams in color and dynamics.

ash =o)

Mathieu Ghekiere · February 13th, 2006, 02:50 AM

I agree with Ash: having nice colours, more detail and range, (often) more manual controls and a more filmlike image (for my purposes) is MUCH more important then some more resolution.

Graham Wright · February 13th, 2006, 07:24 AM

There is the issue of 1 Cmos cameras (as in the Sony HC1) to 3 CCD. I think the 3 CCD camera will still win colourwise from what I've read. Certainly the colours on my HC1 aren't quite as rich as my CCD camera, but the HC1 has a setting where you can bump up the colour saturation.

Alarik Miikael · February 13th, 2006, 08:23 AM

thanks for reply.
Actually my point is the following:

When i shoot with DV cams (good 3ccd dv cams) i'm shooting at 720x576 (I work in PAL) with DV compression 4:1:1.

When i shoot with HDV cams (even ppor 1ccd HDV cam) I'm shooting at 1280x720 with mpeg2 compression (didnt yet realized if it's 4:2:0 or 4:2:2).

But when i downsample my HDV footage to be seen on PAL -TV (720x576) I obtain an image which is much more defined, this allows me to postproduct it without all artifacts I have with DV, allowing me to reach an overall better image even in terms of colours.

(technical explanation: when i shoot in DV, the 4:1:1 (or 4:2:0 on ntsc) compression basicly means that luma is sampled in full resolution (720x576) but colors are sampled in 1/4 resolution (180x144), so in terms of colors I'm shooting an image in 180x144 pixel resolution.
If i shoot on HDV, even if the compression is 4:1:1 or 4:2:0 (and could be more I'm not sure of it) it means that, in terms of colors, I'm shooting at 320x180. To me this means ALSO better color quality.)

This is an hypotesis since I couldn't do the test yet (if someone has footage, please provide it to me) but I'm quite convinced about it.

Alarik

Andre De Clercq · February 13th, 2006, 08:30 AM

Are not all still cams (even the highest performong ones)using a single CCD/CMOS with mosaic filters? Do they have less performing colors than the best 3-CCD video camera's? So, is color rendition still an issue these days? And Why?

Graham Wright · February 13th, 2006, 10:27 AM

Alarik. I agree about HDV being downconverted to DV and watched on a normal TV looking better. In addition to what you have said, other contributory factors include the HDV cam having a better lens. I think the higher resolution sensor's better rendition contrast and detail would show through on a downconversion. And perhaps the generally more advanced and sophisticated electronics. However, if what I've said is rubbish I'm willing to stand corrected.

Alarik Miikael · February 13th, 2006, 12:00 PM

Graham wrote:
"I agree about HDV being downconverted to DV and watched on a normal TV looking better"

Well, I DONT think so... to have good quality you MUST NOT downconvert to DV otherwise there is no gain in quality.... DV 4:1:1 compression sucks and its the cause of porr quality.

The flow should be:
capture movie -> convert in uncompressed AVI -> edit -> finalize on DVD (downsampling to 720x576 resolution).

in this way there is no DV codec involved thus no 4:1:1 degradation.

Alarik

Ash Greyson · February 16th, 2006, 02:23 AM

Define better... clearer? YES... more pleasing? Not to most...

ash =o)

Andre De Clercq · February 16th, 2006, 03:14 AM

HDV uses MPEG2 compresion meaning 4:2:0 for PAL an NTSC as well. If we concetrate on color resolution, it's wise to not downconvert to DV for NTSC users, because the 4:2:0 is further reduced to 4:1:0 (4:2:0 filtered by 4:1:1)
For PAL DV which uses a 4:2:0 downconvert first to DV should not make any difference. The DVD quality will be more determined by the final MPEG2 encoder (and rescaler when started straight from "uncompressed" AVI HDV)

February 12th, 2006, 04:16 PM	#1
Alarik Miikael New Boot Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 10	Call for a challenge: 1CCD-HDV vs 3CCD-DV Hi all, after doing some preliminary tests I've come with the idea that movies recorder with 1ccd-hdv (jvc hd1 for example) are better than ones recorder with 3ccd-dv (sony,panasonic whatever) in terms of image quality as seen on final product that is a DVD 4:3 Unfortunatly i dont have raw footage from those cameras, if someone can, please send me some footage from those two cameras (possibly shoot on a park in a sunny day) and iìll do the test. bye Alarik

February 13th, 2006, 02:50 AM	#3
Mathieu Ghekiere Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Belgium Posts: 2,195	I agree with Ash: having nice colours, more detail and range, (often) more manual controls and a more filmlike image (for my purposes) is MUCH more important then some more resolution. __________________ http://productionsofthe3rdkind.com http://pr3k.com

February 13th, 2006, 07:24 AM	#4
Graham Wright Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: LONDON, UK Posts: 32	There is the issue of 1 Cmos cameras (as in the Sony HC1) to 3 CCD. I think the 3 CCD camera will still win colourwise from what I've read. Certainly the colours on my HC1 aren't quite as rich as my CCD camera, but the HC1 has a setting where you can bump up the colour saturation. __________________ Premiere Pro 2. Sony HC1E cam. Athlon 64 4000+. 2gig Corsair RAM. ATI X800 Pro AGP graphics card. 2X SATA drives dedicated to video as RAID 0

February 13th, 2006, 10:27 AM	#7
Graham Wright Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: LONDON, UK Posts: 32	Alarik. I agree about HDV being downconverted to DV and watched on a normal TV looking better. In addition to what you have said, other contributory factors include the HDV cam having a better lens. I think the higher resolution sensor's better rendition contrast and detail would show through on a downconversion. And perhaps the generally more advanced and sophisticated electronics. However, if what I've said is rubbish I'm willing to stand corrected. __________________ Premiere Pro 2. Sony HC1E cam. Athlon 64 4000+. 2gig Corsair RAM. ATI X800 Pro AGP graphics card. 2X SATA drives dedicated to video as RAID 0

February 13th, 2006, 02:13 AM	#2
Ash Greyson Trustee Join Date: May 2003 Location: Tulsa, OK Posts: 1,689	No point... there will less noise but less color in the 1CCD... there will be better range but a need for more light on the 3CCD. There are very very few scenarios where a 1CCD camera could perform equal to a 3CCD camera assumed the CCDs are of similar size. Here you are talking HD so, the bottom line, what is more important? Rez or accurate color? I bet most people would prefer the image from a progressive 3CCD DV cam like the XL2/DVX which both outperform the 1CCD HDV cams in color and dynamics. ash =o)

February 13th, 2006, 08:23 AM	#5
Alarik Miikael New Boot Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 10	thanks for reply. Actually my point is the following: When i shoot with DV cams (good 3ccd dv cams) i'm shooting at 720x576 (I work in PAL) with DV compression 4:1:1. When i shoot with HDV cams (even ppor 1ccd HDV cam) I'm shooting at 1280x720 with mpeg2 compression (didnt yet realized if it's 4:2:0 or 4:2:2). But when i downsample my HDV footage to be seen on PAL -TV (720x576) I obtain an image which is much more defined, this allows me to postproduct it without all artifacts I have with DV, allowing me to reach an overall better image even in terms of colours. (technical explanation: when i shoot in DV, the 4:1:1 (or 4:2:0 on ntsc) compression basicly means that luma is sampled in full resolution (720x576) but colors are sampled in 1/4 resolution (180x144), so in terms of colors I'm shooting an image in 180x144 pixel resolution. If i shoot on HDV, even if the compression is 4:1:1 or 4:2:0 (and could be more I'm not sure of it) it means that, in terms of colors, I'm shooting at 320x180. To me this means ALSO better color quality.) This is an hypotesis since I couldn't do the test yet (if someone has footage, please provide it to me) but I'm quite convinced about it. Alarik

February 13th, 2006, 08:30 AM	#6
Andre De Clercq Major Player Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Belgium Posts: 804	Are not all still cams (even the highest performong ones)using a single CCD/CMOS with mosaic filters? Do they have less performing colors than the best 3-CCD video camera's? So, is color rendition still an issue these days? And Why?

February 13th, 2006, 12:00 PM	#8
Alarik Miikael New Boot Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 10	Graham wrote: "I agree about HDV being downconverted to DV and watched on a normal TV looking better" Well, I DONT think so... to have good quality you MUST NOT downconvert to DV otherwise there is no gain in quality.... DV 4:1:1 compression sucks and its the cause of porr quality. The flow should be: capture movie -> convert in uncompressed AVI -> edit -> finalize on DVD (downsampling to 720x576 resolution). in this way there is no DV codec involved thus no 4:1:1 degradation. Alarik

February 16th, 2006, 02:23 AM	#9
Ash Greyson Trustee Join Date: May 2003 Location: Tulsa, OK Posts: 1,689	Define better... clearer? YES... more pleasing? Not to most... ash =o)

February 16th, 2006, 03:14 AM	#10
Andre De Clercq Major Player Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Belgium Posts: 804	HDV uses MPEG2 compresion meaning 4:2:0 for PAL an NTSC as well. If we concetrate on color resolution, it's wise to not downconvert to DV for NTSC users, because the 4:2:0 is further reduced to 4:1:0 (4:2:0 filtered by 4:1:1) For PAL DV which uses a 4:2:0 downconvert first to DV should not make any difference. The DVD quality will be more determined by the final MPEG2 encoder (and rescaler when started straight from "uncompressed" AVI HDV)