Shooting Color DV for B&W (Desat in Post) at DVinfo.net

Steve Witt · February 22nd, 2006, 08:06 AM

I'm planning on shooting a B&W Noir short. I want to just shoot in color and then desaturate in post. I want as close to an 30s and 40s B&W Noir mystery thriller film look that I can get. Can anyone offer some advice. I'm shooting with a PV GS400 and will be editing with Premiere Elements. I figured this basic NLE software is about all I'd need.

Matt Irwin · February 22nd, 2006, 02:32 PM

Contrast is the magic word with B&W, and especially with a noir look. Here are some general guidelines:

-Carry a reference monitor with the color turned off because it can sometimes be hard to judge what your image will look like after the desat.

-Separation is very important- whether it be with your lighting, framing, different tones of grey, or (most likely) a combination thereof.

-Remember that complementary colors of equal tint/shade will show up as the same tone of grey. (So full intensity pure red and full intensity pure green will be the same shade of grey)

-Depending on what your wardrobe requirements are, you might want to think about using colored clothing to create certain shades of grey for particular characters. (TEST this is if you do) If you look at behind-the-scenes footage from The Man Who Wasn't There, you'll see actors wearing baby-blue suits, purple ties, etc.

-TEST, TEST, TEST!!

James Bridges · February 22nd, 2006, 04:41 PM

Great points Matt. I've noticed too that in older film noirs the depth of field is longer as with most films. So if you are shooting with video then that's not a bad thing. Funny, I just watched Sunset BLVD for the 100th or so time last night and noticed that very thing. Also be sure to bring up your blacks as well as your whites in post. You may even drop your mids a hair.

GOOD LUCK!

Rainer Hoffmann · February 23rd, 2006, 01:53 AM

Steve, all the advice given above is very good. But keep in mind that just desaturating the footage probably won't give you the effect you want. Remember that black and white film is not just desaturated color film.

I'm not familiar with Premiere Elements but if it has a channel mixer (that's what it is called in Premiere, After Effects and Photoshop) you should give it a try. It gives you full control over how the color is transformed into black and white.

Perhaps this would be interisting for you:

http://luminous-landscape.com/tutori...w_better.shtml

The article is for digital still images but it work just the same for video footage.

Alarik Miikael · February 27th, 2006, 09:20 AM

This is my adivce:
DONT SHOOT IN COLOR
SHOOT in B&W DIRECTLY.

Why?
DV compression is 4:1:1 (or 4:2:0) this means basically that the LUMA informations are sampled 4 times on 4, while colour informations are sampled 1 time on 4, what is missing is just repliacated leading to well known artifacts.
If u shoot on colour u'll have all artifacts (even if u desaturate them, they are there).
If u shoot in B&W u will not have any color artifact, the image quality and resolution will be much more great.

Alarik

Rainer Hoffmann · February 27th, 2006, 10:03 AM

Alarik,

how can you shoot in B&W directly using a DV-camcorder? And why is the resolution higher than when you shoot in color?

Did I miss something?

Robert Crawford · February 27th, 2006, 11:57 AM

Many DV cameras have a B&W setting as a special effect.

Jean-Francois Robichaud · February 27th, 2006, 12:14 PM

Alarik, I doubt that shooting in black and white in-camera can yield more quality than doing it in post. A 4:1:1 image is still 4:1:1 even if you shoot it in black and white; you are not going to get more luma resolution, it's just that the colour difference signals will be null. AFAIK, shooting in colour and discarding the colour information in post (by simply desaturating) should yield exactly the same result as doing it in camera. Not more resolution or quality, not less.

Shooting in colour just allows you to use the colour information to balance your black and white image. Instead of simply discarding the colour information, you can use it to transform your black and white output. This is what the channel mixer will let you do.

Rainer Hoffmann · February 28th, 2006, 01:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert Crawford

Many DV cameras have a B&W setting as a special effect.

Yes, but this setting basically just desaturates the image. It's certainly not the same as loading a b&w film in your Arriflex

Robert M Wright · March 1st, 2006, 04:27 AM

I remember the day my dad bought our first color television back in the 60s. I don't recall anyone thinking it wasn't sharp enough. Nobody wanted to turn it off, and watch the black and white instead.

February 22nd, 2006, 08:06 AM	#1
Steve Witt Major Player Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: kentucky, USA Posts: 429	Shooting Color DV for B&W (Desat in Post) I'm planning on shooting a B&W Noir short. I want to just shoot in color and then desaturate in post. I want as close to an 30s and 40s B&W Noir mystery thriller film look that I can get. Can anyone offer some advice. I'm shooting with a PV GS400 and will be editing with Premiere Elements. I figured this basic NLE software is about all I'd need.

February 22nd, 2006, 02:32 PM	#2
Matt Irwin Major Player Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 327	Contrast is the magic word with B&W, and especially with a noir look. Here are some general guidelines: -Carry a reference monitor with the color turned off because it can sometimes be hard to judge what your image will look like after the desat. -Separation is very important- whether it be with your lighting, framing, different tones of grey, or (most likely) a combination thereof. -Remember that complementary colors of equal tint/shade will show up as the same tone of grey. (So full intensity pure red and full intensity pure green will be the same shade of grey) -Depending on what your wardrobe requirements are, you might want to think about using colored clothing to create certain shades of grey for particular characters. (TEST this is if you do) If you look at behind-the-scenes footage from The Man Who Wasn't There, you'll see actors wearing baby-blue suits, purple ties, etc. -TEST, TEST, TEST!! __________________ Matt Irwin DP / matt.irwincine.com

February 22nd, 2006, 04:41 PM	#3
James Bridges Regular Crew Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Oklahoma City, Oklahoma Posts: 113	Great points Matt. I've noticed too that in older film noirs the depth of field is longer as with most films. So if you are shooting with video then that's not a bad thing. Funny, I just watched Sunset BLVD for the 100th or so time last night and noticed that very thing. Also be sure to bring up your blacks as well as your whites in post. You may even drop your mids a hair. GOOD LUCK! __________________ James out------ Check out the Southern Winds Film Festival. Call for entries is now open! http://www.southernwindsfilmfestival.com http://www.phigmentphilms.com

February 23rd, 2006, 01:53 AM	#4
Rainer Hoffmann Major Player Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Syke, Germany Posts: 249	Steve, all the advice given above is very good. But keep in mind that just desaturating the footage probably won't give you the effect you want. Remember that black and white film is not just desaturated color film. I'm not familiar with Premiere Elements but if it has a channel mixer (that's what it is called in Premiere, After Effects and Photoshop) you should give it a try. It gives you full control over how the color is transformed into black and white. Perhaps this would be interisting for you: http://luminous-landscape.com/tutori...w_better.shtml The article is for digital still images but it work just the same for video footage. __________________ Keep rolling Rainer

February 27th, 2006, 10:03 AM	#6
Rainer Hoffmann Major Player Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Syke, Germany Posts: 249	Alarik, how can you shoot in B&W directly using a DV-camcorder? And why is the resolution higher than when you shoot in color? Did I miss something? __________________ Keep rolling Rainer

February 27th, 2006, 09:20 AM	#5
Alarik Miikael New Boot Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 10	This is my adivce: DONT SHOOT IN COLOR SHOOT in B&W DIRECTLY. Why? DV compression is 4:1:1 (or 4:2:0) this means basically that the LUMA informations are sampled 4 times on 4, while colour informations are sampled 1 time on 4, what is missing is just repliacated leading to well known artifacts. If u shoot on colour u'll have all artifacts (even if u desaturate them, they are there). If u shoot in B&W u will not have any color artifact, the image quality and resolution will be much more great. Alarik

February 27th, 2006, 11:57 AM	#7
Robert Crawford Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 33	Many DV cameras have a B&W setting as a special effect.

February 27th, 2006, 12:14 PM	#8
Jean-Francois Robichaud Regular Crew Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Montreal, Canada Posts: 142	Alarik, I doubt that shooting in black and white in-camera can yield more quality than doing it in post. A 4:1:1 image is still 4:1:1 even if you shoot it in black and white; you are not going to get more luma resolution, it's just that the colour difference signals will be null. AFAIK, shooting in colour and discarding the colour information in post (by simply desaturating) should yield exactly the same result as doing it in camera. Not more resolution or quality, not less. Shooting in colour just allows you to use the colour information to balance your black and white image. Instead of simply discarding the colour information, you can use it to transform your black and white output. This is what the channel mixer will let you do. __________________ JF Robichaud

March 1st, 2006, 04:27 AM	#10
Robert M Wright Inner Circle Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Minnesota (USA) Posts: 2,171	I remember the day my dad bought our first color television back in the 60s. I don't recall anyone thinking it wasn't sharp enough. Nobody wanted to turn it off, and watch the black and white instead.