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Old November 24th, 2006, 08:37 AM   #1
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Am I wrong (or crazy) for wanting to unload my Z1u?

Hello, i'm a noobie. Have been reading posts on this amazing site for a few months, but this is my first post :-)

I've been struggling with a few issues regarding my Z1, and HDV in general. I don;t feel good about telling people I can produce high def content. I strongly feel that 1440 x 1080i isn't real high definition. My thinking is that only 1920 x 1080P is actual high def. Am I wrong?

My big issue is the fact that the Z1 records interlace (blecchh).

I feel that standard def will be with us for the next few years, and that if i *really* want to do the best for my clients (I produce corporate videos) that something like the XL2 is by far the better cam. Am I wrong about standard def being with us for at least the next two years?

The other issue is that Sony's new V1 seems to be a dramatic leap forward. If reality matches the hype, then this is a cam that produces 1920 x 1080 P: true high def. Progressive no less.

Alas, like most of Sony's cams, the V1 looks like a toy. Can ypu imagine showing up for a professional shoot with what looks like a handy cam?

So my urge is to sell my Z1 and purchase an XL2, and see what the state of HDV is in a couple of years. Everybody I've talked to thinks I;m crazy.

Am I?

Believe it or not I;ve been losing sleep over this the last two weeks :-)
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Old November 24th, 2006, 08:47 AM   #2
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Welcome to DVinfo James! Personally I think Z1 can produce terrific standard definition footage if you downconvert from HDV. I can't tell you what camera is right though, you have to decide that for yourself. However, realize that 1440x1080 is the HDV standard and not 1920x1080. If you bought a V1 you would still be getting 1440x1080. Same for Canon's HDV cameras.

I'm very happy with my Z1 and don't plan to trade it anytime soon. However I don't need to impress anyone with the size of my camera; if that's a big concern, get a mattebox, shoulder rest and some other goodies and put them on your Z1 :-)
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Old November 24th, 2006, 08:53 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by James W. Graham
So my urge is to sell my Z1 and purchase an XL2, and see what the state of HDV is in a couple of years. Everybody I've talked to thinks I;m crazy.

Am I?

Believe it or not I;ve been losing sleep over this the last two weeks :-)
Yup, your Crazy! Enough said!

Well, not really. The Z1 is an excellant camera with all the potential you need to do whatever you want. I have an XL2, and I love it, but will sell it to go HD. I will be getting an XLH1, not a Z1, but not because I think that the Canon is "SOOO" much better, it is that I have all kinds of accessories for the XL series. I want to be able to changes lenses etc..

I have friends who have the Sony High Def cameras and they make beautiful footage. If you do really have one, keep it, and learn to use it! High Def is a format and the camera is truely High Def. Don't like 1080i, get used to it, deinterlace. Few cameras do 1080p, and most will not catch up for a long time. Wait for a while, make money with your Z1 and buy when the market has settled somewhat. If you can't shoot good video with the Z1, you can't do it period.

This is from a XL2 and XL1s owner, so please take my word that the Z1 is great!

Mike
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Old November 24th, 2006, 08:54 AM   #4
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Anything over 576 lines of vertical resolution is considered HD, James. The Z1 is one of the best, TRUE HDV and low-cost HD cameras out there. There's nothing wrong with Interlace, but the V1 does 24p and 30p, along with 60i, and compared to the Z1, it's nearly identical in features with some better image controls and more.

Otherwise, expect to spend a lot of money to buy a 1080p camera (the F350 XDCAM HD costs around $15,000 without a lens).

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Old November 24th, 2006, 09:00 AM   #5
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James,

Are you crazy? I don't think so. You raise valid points. Whether you should sell the Z1 and get an XL2, in that perspective I would agree with others that you are crazy to even consider that. You would be downgrading from HDV to SD. Somewhat similar to sell a Ferrari or Lamborghini and get a cheap Chevy/Daewoo. I mean both do the job in getting you from A to B, but the ride is quite different in terms of enjoyment and comfort.

You mention that the V1 looks like a toy and you want to look professional. In that case, have you considered the Sony 350 XDCAM HD? From a budget point of view, be prepared however to spend upwards of $ 40K for a complete setup, including lens, batteries, charger, tripod, etc.

Another point, how do you deliver HD material? Do your clients have HD-DVD or Blue-Ray, or do you still use SD-DVD? If the latter, I would just keep the Z1 and await the arrival of some HD delivery format and players with your clients.

BTW, 1440x1080 with a PAR of 1.333 gives 1920x1080.
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Old November 24th, 2006, 09:03 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by James W. Graham
I strongly feel that 1440 x 1080i isn't real high definition. My thinking is that only 1920 x 1080P is actual high def. Am I wrong?
Afraid so, James. Not only is 1440x1080 actual high definition, but so is 1280x720, which is the other flavor of HDV. In fact, the Advanced Television Systems Committee defines high definition as "any format with a higher definition than SDTV," but it's generally accepted that HDTV starts at 720.

Edit: Oops, Heath beat me to it while I was typing: "Anything over 576 lines of vertical resolution is considered HD."
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Old November 24th, 2006, 09:05 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Harm Millaard
Whether you should sell the Z1 and get an XL2, in that perspective I would agree with others that you are crazy to even consider that. You would be downgrading from HDV to SD. Somewhat similar to sell a Ferrari or Lamborghini and get a cheap Chevy/Daewoo.
Not sure that I would equate the Z1 with a Ferrari, but I'm positive that I would not equate the XL2 with a Daewoo! The XL2 is an outstanding camera, and for SD it may indeed be the Farrari.

You said he made some valid points, which ones were they?

Mike
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Old November 24th, 2006, 09:10 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Harm Millaard
BTW, 1440x1080 with a PAR of 1.333 gives 1920x1080.
Thanks everybody, for the rapid responses. What an amazing board this is.

The above statement I do not understand. PAR of 1.333? Forgive my ignorance.

Indeed, lack of delivery media is an issue. And thats clouded my decision, since I cannot even begin to estimate, or downright guess, when affordable bluewave burners will be available. I remember a few short years ago when Pioneer released the first sub-thousand dollar dvd burner and that changed everything for us lower end producers.

So for the foreseeable future DVD's are with us, and hence standard def, and by extension the XL2 would be the best bet (or so my logic has it).

Back to the V1... Sony says quite clearly that their cam does full 1920 x 1080 P.

Quote: Sensor are processed in the progressive domain as 1920 x 1080p signals, allowing high-resolution progressive footage to be captured.

Here is the link: http://bssc.sel.sony.com/Broadcastan...ogressive.html

If so that is a radical leap forward, is it not?

That, my friends, excites me. Yep, looks like I;m a geek :-)
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Old November 24th, 2006, 09:15 AM   #9
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1. SD is not dead yet. It will disappear, but that will take a couple of years, since the delivery format for HDV is still rather unclear.
2. HDV without a delivery format makes downconverting to SD almost necessary , thus you may question why not get a good/great SD camera like the XL2.

The drawback for the last action however, is that you throw away future capabilities for HDV.
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Old November 24th, 2006, 09:20 AM   #10
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James,

1440x1080 pixels, which are not square but rectangular will look like 1920x1080 pixels. This is called the Pixel Aspect Ratio, PAR. In old SD terms it is the same. Talking PAL, SD-DV is 720x576 pixels. To display 4:3 or 16:9 formats different PAR's are used to ensure that the display is correctly formatted.
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Old November 24th, 2006, 09:20 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Harm Millaard
1. SD is not dead yet. It will disappear, but that will take a couple of years, since the delivery format for HDV is still rather unclear.
2. HDV without a delivery format makes downconverting to SD almost necessary , thus you may question why not get a good/great SD camera like the XL2.

The drawback for the last action however, is that you throw away future capabilities for HDV.

My point exactly!! And if you're going to distribute high def, it makes sense to produce with the best standard def cam, and in my humble opinion, the XL2 is far superior to the Z1.

Another noob question: about interlacing. Seems to me that the procedure of interlacing simply removes on of the fields, and that would cut my resolution in half. Am I right?

Thanks for indulging my relentlessly noobish questions. I deeply apreciate everybodies contributions :-)
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Old November 24th, 2006, 09:24 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by James W. Graham
My point exactly!! And if you're going to distribute high def, it makes sense to produce with the best standard def cam, and in my humble opinion, the XL2 is far superior to the Z1.
If I'm delivering in SD, I'll still shoot, capture and edit in HDV, then do a down-convert in my NLE to SD for delivery. It's been proven time and time again to be better than originating in SD (or down-converting from camera or VTR to NLE). Later down the road, I can deliver an HD copy to the clients and make some more money. So to me, shooting in SD doesn't make sense if I can shoot in HDV, edit in HDV, deliver now in DV/SD (with better quality because of the 4.5 times the resolution) and then make more money later with an HD delivery.

PAR is all about the Pixel Aspect Ratio. There's a lot of math involved, which is tough to understand, to be honest. Check out VASST's HDV book which explains a lot.

Also, Adam Wilt explains things nicely, too, and not just in HDV.

heath

ps-And no sweat one your newbie questions.
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Old November 24th, 2006, 09:24 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by Harm Millaard
James,

1440x1080 pixels, which are not square but rectangular will look like 1920x1080 pixels. This is called the Pixel Aspect Ratio, PAR. In old SD terms it is the same. Talking PAL, SD-DV is 720x576 pixels. To display 4:3 or 16:9 formats different PAR's are used to ensure that the display is correctly formatted.
Ah. I see. now, any idea how i would ensure that I am outputting this? What setting would I use? I edit in Premier Pro 2 and also Final cut

That is significant, being able to bump up to 1920 x 1080.
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Old November 24th, 2006, 09:27 AM   #14
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In my opinion the XL2 may be the best of the SD cameras. But, downresed Z1 footage, (shot in HD, then downressed) ia simply beautiful.

Unless you need the other options available on the XL series, lenses, adaptors, etc., stay with the Z1.

Mike
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Old November 24th, 2006, 09:28 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by James W. Graham
Ah. I see. now, any idea how i would ensure that I am outputting this? What setting would I use? I edit in Premier Pro 2 and also Final cut

That is significant, being able to bump up to 1920 x 1080.
A lot of that happens in the display, but you don't need to worry about it in the NLE. I've been cutting native HDV in Final Cut Pro for almost two years now.

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