Panasonic AVCHD camcorders announced; plus AVC Intra (pre-NAB2008)

Ethan Cooper · February 16th, 2008, 04:48 PM

Anyone know the minimum specs for the SDHC media?

I've never used SDHC media before and was surprised to see that the most expensive card I can find (on a non-sponsor site that I can't list) is a $75 16GB card. That's a big deal. At that price I can afford to buy several cards and not worry about dumping anything in the field. Oh, and by the way, it says this media is Class6 whatever that means.
Anyone know if a card that cheap is fast enough to be used in one of these things? If not, how much is a 16GB card that is fast enough?
Pardon my ignorance about this stuff.

Chris Hurd · February 16th, 2008, 08:29 PM

If it's Class 4 or 6 then it should be fast enough for AVCHD. Avoid no-name or off-name brands. Watch out for counterfeit branding. If you're not buying from a DV Info Net sponsor, make sure it's a reputable dealer. Personally I use SanDisk cards but Lexar and Kingston are good names too.

Lawrence Bansbach · February 16th, 2008, 11:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jon Fairhurst

I'd be willing to bet that they are using their 960x540 1/3" chips.

Probably, but Crave says they're new chips.

Ian Slessor · February 17th, 2008, 03:02 AM

...then a 16gig SD card should hold nearly an hour and a half of HD video.

Do I have the numbers correct?

Right now Kingston's 16gig Class4 cards are about $200 but the prices are dropping so quickly and you could always pick up smaller cards if you wanted or shoot at a lower rate and extend your card's capacity. Hell, in Canada the Kingston 8gig class4 is $79 and the 4gig class6 is $37. Pick up a handful of them. That and/or dump to a HDD or some sort of portable SD card dumper which I'm sure must be in the works from somebody.

Ooh. And PLEASE have more than one SD slot in this camera. Geez.

Regardless.

No. More. Tape.

Yeeesssss.

ian

Jon Fairhurst · February 17th, 2008, 04:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lawrence Bansbach

Probably, but Crave says they're new chips.

That could be good news. Maybe I lost my bet!

I think Crave's estimated price (at least, street price) is too high. Based on the model number and AVCHD data rate, it should be noticeably lower than the P2 HXV-200.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but if they were roughly the same price, wouldn't most everybody here choose the HVX-200? (Maybe I'm missing something.)

Bill Koehler · February 17th, 2008, 05:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jon Fairhurst

That could be good news. Maybe I lost my bet!

I think Crave's estimated price (at least, street price) is too high. Based on the model number and AVCHD data rate, it should be noticeably lower than the P2 HXV-200.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but if they were roughly the same price, wouldn't most everybody here choose the HVX-200? (Maybe I'm missing something.)

Or the Sony Z7?

Ethan Cooper · February 17th, 2008, 10:30 AM

I took a look at the price quoted on that site and I think they're just plain wrong. I can see the HVX replacement coming in at $6000+ but not this thing. Most likely it'll be competing with the V1u and come in $3500+.
It had better come in at this price range or I'll be disappointed. I just hope they don't price this thing too high because it's HD. It's time for that to go away since HD is now the standard (who really buys SD anymore?) and just a few years ago, the equivalent SD cams in the prosumer range went for $2500 to $3500. I do find it frustrating that the prosumer price-tag has shifted upwards by a few thousand these days. I'd love to see it come back down to where it was. Who knows if that will happen.

So for recording times at 17mb setting (if it has one) you can expect an hour+ to fit on a 16gb card that should cost somewhere around $150 or less (maybe even half that) by the time this thing hits the streets. If the 17mb setting looks as good as HDV (please) then this will be a big deal for event guys like myself.
Even if this thing only had one slot (booo) that shouldn't be a problem. Just pop in a fresh card before the service starts or at the beginning of the reception or whatever and go. Just monitor your record time and switch cards at a slow moment if you need to be ready for something you know is coming up that you can't miss. It'll be much like shooting to tape in this regard and lord knows we've all figured out how to deal with that by now.

***EDIT***
I may have to amend my numbers a bit. Since I don't know how good the off brand media is, I did a search for Panasonic SDHC 16GB Class 6 cards and the lowest price at a major retailer I could find was around $250. I'm guessing when these cameras hit the streets we'll find lower priced off brand stuff that works with them, but for now since I don't know any better I'll assume this is what a 16gb card will run.
Does Panasonic's smaller AVCHD cams do 17mb? Maybe I can do a little research into what media people are using with those cameras.

Lawrence Bansbach · February 17th, 2008, 11:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jon Fairhurst

I think Crave's estimated price (at least, street price) is too high. Based on the model number and AVCHD data rate, it should be noticeably lower than the P2 HXV-200.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but if they were roughly the same price, wouldn't most everybody here choose the HVX-200? (Maybe I'm missing something.)

We don't yet know the HMC150's top AVCHD data rate. It could be as high as 20-24 Mbps (Panasonic may not even know it yet as they may still be working on it). But, yeah, if their prices are similar, I suppose that most people would choose the HVX, which in addition to HD supports DVCPro 50 and, on tape, DV (which could be a deal breaker for those who have to hand a tape off to a client after shooting). However, we also don't know the HMC150's zoom range, the resolution or light sensitivity of its CCDs, or which version of HDMI it supports (10-bit 4:2:2 at full 1,920 x 1,080 over HDMI 1.3 would be nice). But as Jan Crittenden has said, Panasonic views the camera as the DVX's successor, which places the HMC150 in a somewhat lower target market than the HVX's (although obviously there is considerable overlap). I would therefore assume that the HMC150's price will be lower.

Kevin James · February 17th, 2008, 11:48 AM

Does AVCHD support variable frame rates like the P2 cams?

Ethan Cooper · February 17th, 2008, 11:55 AM

If this is to be the DVX replacement, then I fully expect it to be a darn good camera. The DVX was the class of the prosumer SD cams (when compared to the PD170, GL2 etc) and was priced at the top end of that category. So if it is to compete with the XHA1 or V1u then I fully expect it to fall into that price range or around $3,500 to $4,500. We'll see.

Chris Hurd · February 17th, 2008, 11:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ethan Cooper

I took a look at the price quoted on that site and I think they're just plain wrong.

Yeah, I think it's a given that they're wrong.

Now maybe you can understand why outside links like that frustrate me so much, when the info posted here on DV Info Net is usually much more accurate. I think I'm going to get a little more aggressive about disallowing outside links like that, for two reasons. First, we already have that news. You don't need to look for it elsewhere. It was right here at DV Info Net all along. Second, there's too much inaccuracy and misinformation coming from these other web sources.

I've already stopped incoming links from a notoriously horrible site that's purely commercial driven and thoroughly riddled with technical inaccuracy. Looks like it's time to expand this policy a bit further.

If I can just get some of you guys trained to look here first for industry news, I'd have a lot less heartburn. Knock off these outside links; you're not helping anyone with them, in fact by posting that junk you're just spreading misinformation. Thanks in advance,

Ian Slessor · February 21st, 2008, 08:57 AM

...the HMC70 is listed at Vistek in Canada for $2500 CDN.

<conjecture>All things being equal I would imagine the 150 will MSRP around $3800 but street south of $3500.</conjecture>

At least I'm hoping that's what it'll be.

Please, Panasonic?

ian

Chris Hurd · February 21st, 2008, 09:04 AM

Seems reasonable to me Ian. Spec-wise the HMC150 falls between the DVX100 and HVX200, so I imagine the price will too. I think your numbers are pretty sound.

Kevin James · February 21st, 2008, 07:47 PM

Can anyone weigh in on whether the AVCHD codec supports variable frame rates like the P2 cameras?

Kevin James · February 21st, 2008, 09:52 PM

Well that answers a major part of the question anyway- not a low cost replacement for the P2 cams for me. Too bad. I have really grown accustomed to the flexibility of the p2 cams.

February 16th, 2008, 04:48 PM	#31
Ethan Cooper Trustee Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Houma, La. Posts: 1,400 Images: 5	Anyone know the minimum specs for the SDHC media? I've never used SDHC media before and was surprised to see that the most expensive card I can find (on a non-sponsor site that I can't list) is a $75 16GB card. That's a big deal. At that price I can afford to buy several cards and not worry about dumping anything in the field. Oh, and by the way, it says this media is Class6 whatever that means. Anyone know if a card that cheap is fast enough to be used in one of these things? If not, how much is a 16GB card that is fast enough? Pardon my ignorance about this stuff. __________________ ∅ -Ethan Cooper

February 16th, 2008, 08:29 PM	#32
Chris Hurd Obstreperous Rex Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: San Marcos, TX Posts: 27,366 Images: 513	If it's Class 4 or 6 then it should be fast enough for AVCHD. Avoid no-name or off-name brands. Watch out for counterfeit branding. If you're not buying from a DV Info Net sponsor, make sure it's a reputable dealer. Personally I use SanDisk cards but Lexar and Kingston are good names too. __________________ CH Search DV Info Net \| 20 years of DVi \| ...Tuesday is Soylent Green Day!

February 17th, 2008, 03:02 AM	#34
Ian Slessor Major Player Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: South-Central Ontario, Canada Posts: 216	If they do offer a 24mbps rate... ...then a 16gig SD card should hold nearly an hour and a half of HD video. Do I have the numbers correct? Right now Kingston's 16gig Class4 cards are about $200 but the prices are dropping so quickly and you could always pick up smaller cards if you wanted or shoot at a lower rate and extend your card's capacity. Hell, in Canada the Kingston 8gig class4 is $79 and the 4gig class6 is $37. Pick up a handful of them. That and/or dump to a HDD or some sort of portable SD card dumper which I'm sure must be in the works from somebody. Ooh. And PLEASE have more than one SD slot in this camera. Geez. Regardless. No. More. Tape. Yeeesssss. ian

February 17th, 2008, 10:30 AM	#37
Ethan Cooper Trustee Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Houma, La. Posts: 1,400 Images: 5	I took a look at the price quoted on that site and I think they're just plain wrong. I can see the HVX replacement coming in at $6000+ but not this thing. Most likely it'll be competing with the V1u and come in $3500+. It had better come in at this price range or I'll be disappointed. I just hope they don't price this thing too high because it's HD. It's time for that to go away since HD is now the standard (who really buys SD anymore?) and just a few years ago, the equivalent SD cams in the prosumer range went for $2500 to $3500. I do find it frustrating that the prosumer price-tag has shifted upwards by a few thousand these days. I'd love to see it come back down to where it was. Who knows if that will happen. So for recording times at 17mb setting (if it has one) you can expect an hour+ to fit on a 16gb card that should cost somewhere around $150 or less (maybe even half that) by the time this thing hits the streets. If the 17mb setting looks as good as HDV (please) then this will be a big deal for event guys like myself. Even if this thing only had one slot (booo) that shouldn't be a problem. Just pop in a fresh card before the service starts or at the beginning of the reception or whatever and go. Just monitor your record time and switch cards at a slow moment if you need to be ready for something you know is coming up that you can't miss. It'll be much like shooting to tape in this regard and lord knows we've all figured out how to deal with that by now. *EDIT* I may have to amend my numbers a bit. Since I don't know how good the off brand media is, I did a search for Panasonic SDHC 16GB Class 6 cards and the lowest price at a major retailer I could find was around $250. I'm guessing when these cameras hit the streets we'll find lower priced off brand stuff that works with them, but for now since I don't know any better I'll assume this is what a 16gb card will run. Does Panasonic's smaller AVCHD cams do 17mb? Maybe I can do a little research into what media people are using with those cameras. __________________ ∅ -Ethan Cooper

February 17th, 2008, 11:55 AM	#40
Ethan Cooper Trustee Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Houma, La. Posts: 1,400 Images: 5	If this is to be the DVX replacement, then I fully expect it to be a darn good camera. The DVX was the class of the prosumer SD cams (when compared to the PD170, GL2 etc) and was priced at the top end of that category. So if it is to compete with the XHA1 or V1u then I fully expect it to fall into that price range or around $3,500 to $4,500. We'll see. __________________ ∅ -Ethan Cooper

February 17th, 2008, 11:48 AM	#39
Kevin James Major Player Join Date: May 2004 Location: Orlando, FL Posts: 204	Does AVCHD support variable frame rates like the P2 cams?

February 21st, 2008, 08:57 AM	#42
Ian Slessor Major Player Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: South-Central Ontario, Canada Posts: 216	The little brother of the 150... ...the HMC70 is listed at Vistek in Canada for $2500 CDN. <conjecture>All things being equal I would imagine the 150 will MSRP around $3800 but street south of $3500.</conjecture> At least I'm hoping that's what it'll be. Please, Panasonic? ian

February 21st, 2008, 09:04 AM	#43
Chris Hurd Obstreperous Rex Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: San Marcos, TX Posts: 27,366 Images: 513	Seems reasonable to me Ian. Spec-wise the HMC150 falls between the DVX100 and HVX200, so I imagine the price will too. I think your numbers are pretty sound. __________________ CH Search DV Info Net \| 20 years of DVi \| ...Tuesday is Soylent Green Day!

February 21st, 2008, 07:47 PM	#44
Kevin James Major Player Join Date: May 2004 Location: Orlando, FL Posts: 204	Can anyone weigh in on whether the AVCHD codec supports variable frame rates like the P2 cameras?

February 21st, 2008, 09:52 PM	#45
Kevin James Major Player Join Date: May 2004 Location: Orlando, FL Posts: 204	Well that answers a major part of the question anyway- not a low cost replacement for the P2 cams for me. Too bad. I have really grown accustomed to the flexibility of the p2 cams.