EX1 compared to the HMC150? at DVinfo.net

Go Back   DV Info Net > Panasonic P2HD / AVCCAM / AVCHD / DV Camera Systems > Panasonic AVCCAM Camcorders

Panasonic AVCCAM Camcorders
AVCHD for pro applications: AG-AC160, AC130 and other AVCCAM gear.


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old December 14th, 2008, 12:49 PM   #1
Regular Crew
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Posts: 71
EX1 compared to the HMC150?

Hey guys,

I want to know how the quality of the footage the EX1 gives compared to the Panasonic HMC150? I know both are totally different cameras, codec, price, etc.. But there's one thing they have in common, tapeless.... which is something I'm looking for in a camera.

I know the EX1 is 1/2" CMOS and HMC150 is only 1/3" CCD.

How good is the EX1 footage compared to the HMC150?

Thanks!
John
John Palaganas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 14th, 2008, 01:39 PM   #2
Inner Circle
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 2,699
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Palaganas View Post
How good is the EX1 footage compared to the HMC150?
In a word - better. But it should be, the EX costs about 50% more than a HMC150 - you get what you pay for. If you can afford it, get the EX, if you can't the HMC150 is still a good camera.

The higher native resolution of the EX doesn't just mean sharper pictures, it means it can be used with less detail enhancement, yet not look soft. It's not just picture quality. The EX has true manual controls, the 150 has servos, and the EX allows off-speed shooting, the HMC150 doesn't.
David Heath is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 16th, 2008, 01:05 AM   #3
Regular Crew
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Traverse City, MI
Posts: 41
Images: 2
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Heath View Post
...allows off-speed shooting, the HMC150 doesn't.
Unless you count the 720p60 as overcranked 720p24...
__________________
Darren Shroeger | http://hdmuse.com | Traverse City, Michigan
Darren Shroeger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 17th, 2008, 07:48 PM   #4
Inner Circle
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 2,699
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darren Shroeger View Post
Unless you count the 720p60 as overcranked 720p24...
There is a difference - shoot basic 720p/24 with an EX and the basic data rate is 35Mbs. Now shoot overcranked, and the data rate recorded to card goes much higher, such that when replayed at 24fps, the data rate is 35Mbs, just as for normal 720p/24.

Shoot 720p/60 with an HMC150 and the data rate stays at about 21Mbs. Replay it at slower frame rates, and the average data rate must drop well below that figure.
David Heath is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 18th, 2008, 03:53 PM   #5
Trustee
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Gilbert, AZ
Posts: 1,896
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Heath View Post
Shoot 720p/60 with an HMC150 and the data rate stays at about 21Mbs. Replay it at slower frame rates, and the average data rate must drop well below that figure.
Good point.
Steven Thomas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 18th, 2008, 10:30 PM   #6
Major Player
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Brisbane, California
Posts: 530
I'm actually doing a comparison right now. I own the EX1 and am evaluating a HMC150. So far my perception is that the images on the HMC150 do not compare in quality with the EX1.

However this is without finding the sweet spots and any good tweaking or exposure optimization. It seems to have a lot less latitude than the EX1 from what I see so far and is far softer. I really want it work out as my B camera because I like the ergonomics, the lack of rolling shutter issues, the weight and the SDHC acquisition.

Really the EX1 is a fine camera, the image is solid I don't think you could go wrong here. Right now the EX1 codec is easier to use on a Mac than the AVCHD footage, and there still seem to be problems with longer length takes on the HMC150.

I'll keep you posted as I form further opinions
Keith Moreau is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 19th, 2008, 10:21 PM   #7
Regular Crew
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Posts: 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by Keith Moreau View Post
I'm actually doing a comparison right now. I own the EX1 and am evaluating a HMC150. So far my perception is that the images on the HMC150 do not compare in quality with the EX1.

However this is without finding the sweet spots and any good tweaking or exposure optimization. It seems to have a lot less latitude than the EX1 from what I see so far and is far softer. I really want it work out as my B camera because I like the ergonomics, the lack of rolling shutter issues, the weight and the SDHC acquisition.

Really the EX1 is a fine camera, the image is solid I don't think you could go wrong here. Right now the EX1 codec is easier to use on a Mac than the AVCHD footage, and there still seem to be problems with longer length takes on the HMC150.

I'll keep you posted as I form further opinions
Great! I hope you can post your thorough feedback as well after. Maybe post some comparison screenshot or footage if you can? :)
John Palaganas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 28th, 2008, 10:26 AM   #8
Major Player
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark
Posts: 219
Differencies yes and no

Hi There,

I have tried them both in a DVD-production of a stand up show. In fact i own a HMC150. And you can tweek the HMC150 to a certain degree to look like an EX1. Use Scene File Cine D, and and dynamic Range Stretch set to 3. But the EX1 got more lattitude and less noise.
35 Mbit/s MPEG 2 and a larger CMOS sensor makes a difference.

But on the other hand - you can buy a truckload of SD-cards for the price difference between the Panasonic HMC-150 and a Sony EX1. And I like to have up to three hours recording time om a media, that is so cheap that you could use it for archival.

The best
__________________
----------------------------
12c41

JOS. Svendsen
Jos Svendsen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 28th, 2008, 12:12 PM   #9
Inner Circle
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 2,699
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jos Svendsen View Post
And I like to have up to three hours recording time om a media, that is so cheap that you could use it for archival.
Agreed, but are you aware that it's now possible to directly use basic SDHC cards in an EX via a cheap adaptor? The EX also has two slots, so a longer uninterrupted run time and the possibility of card-card dubbing.
David Heath is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 28th, 2008, 12:19 PM   #10
Major Player
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Houston, Texas
Posts: 740
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jos Svendsen View Post
Hi There,

I have tried them both in a DVD-production of a stand up show. In fact i own a HMC150. And you can tweek the HMC150 to a certain degree to look like an EX1. Use Scene File Cine D, and and dynamic Range Stretch set to 3. But the EX1 got more lattitude and less noise.
35 Mbit/s MPEG 2 and a larger CMOS sensor makes a difference.

But on the other hand - you can buy a truckload of SD-cards for the price difference between the Panasonic HMC-150 and a Sony EX1. And I like to have up to three hours recording time om a media, that is so cheap that you could use it for archival.

The best

The EX1 can Also use SDHC media with the help of a Express card adapter MxR or Kensengton. I using (2)32GB SanDisk SDHC cards thats four hours of recording in HQ mode. I have shot with both cameras and I agree the EX1 has more lattitude and less noise.
Brian Rhodes is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 28th, 2008, 01:03 PM   #11
Major Player
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Brisbane, California
Posts: 530
HMC150 as B camera

I'm glad this thread has started up. I'm currently testing / evaluating the HMC150 as a B camera to my EX1. I use it mostly with the TC2 C4 setting in the Picture Profiles thread. I'd rather match the HMC150 to my EX1, no matter what I set the EX1 to since it's the A camera, rather than the other way around or tweaking the EX1 to some compromise. I'm also willing to adjust the HMC150 footage in post if needed.

I'm considering the HMC150 because I like the idea of AVCHD compression - maybe it's more efficient than MPEG2? I also wanted to get a CCD camera to avoid the rolling shutter, for some of the things I do in post, I've noticed the jello-like EX1 rolling shutter effects. I also like the 'solid state' storage media of SDHC cards, as I use the EX1 more and more and create a workflow and archiving method, I want to get away from tape (However I'm also evaluating the Canon XH A1, which is HDV tape-based).

So far with my tests of the HMC150 I'm not that impressed with the image, it seems a lot softer and noisier, and the noise is kind of strange looking, especially on the bokeh. However I admit my tests so far are not great. If I can sharpen up or otherwise color correct the HMC150 image in post.

Does anybody have advice or better yet, examples of where these 2 cameras were intercut together?
Keith Moreau is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 28th, 2008, 01:41 PM   #12
Major Player
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 477
Have you seen any diff in how they handle motion? In theory the MPEG4 compression of the HMC150 may have advantages there.

To me its interesting that gthese two are being compared at all, and that speaks quite highly for the HMC. But to expect it to go toe-to-toe with an EX-1, with its 1/2" chips in terms of noise etc....is that realistic?

The advantage here would be in the codec, (MPEG4 vs. MPEG2) and what it brings to the table, which may be better motion due to its intra-frame prediction.
Steve Wolla is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 28th, 2008, 02:00 PM   #13
Major Player
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Brisbane, California
Posts: 530
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Wolla View Post
Have you seen any diff in how they handle motion? In theory the MPEG4 compression of the HMC150 may have advantages there.
As far as normal motion, I've not had a problem with the EX1. I do some post work where I do smoothcam or steadicam processing. The EX1 in that mode does exhibit the classic rolling shutter effect, perhaps to a lesser degree than HDV camcorders. As far as 'break-up' on the EX1 due to motion I have not noticed that. And other reports on the EX1 says the 35mb/second long GOP handles this well.

I'm still not actually sure if comparing the HMC150 to the EX1 in other ways is realistic. You can tell just by 'holding' the camera that the HMC150 is a more cheaply designed camera. For example the HMC150's LCD doesn't compare nor the lens feel. However it's a couple pounds lighter, it's ergonomics are good. The 1/3" chip makes everything smaller and lighter. The HMC150 could probably have been made even smaller, it seems to much less 'dense' than the EX1, like there's a lot of empty space inside that body.
Keith Moreau is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 28th, 2008, 02:58 PM   #14
Major Player
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 477
Keith, what do you shoot?
I am doing more sports work and got the HMC150 as the MPEG4 is a much better choice than MPEG2 for fast motion, at least on paper. I could not risk "ghosting" or other artifacting issues hence my choice.
It all really depends on the job you need to do. The more I shoot the more I come to believe that no single cam can meet expectations across the gamut that I shoot.
Steve Wolla is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 29th, 2008, 11:52 AM   #15
Major Player
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Virginia Beach, VA
Posts: 656
Quote:
Originally Posted by Keith Moreau View Post
I'm actually doing a comparison right now. I own the EX1 and am evaluating a HMC150. So far my perception is that the images on the HMC150 do not compare in quality with the EX1.
The footage will still intercut from the two for a SD production IMO. I don't think it's gonna work at all mixing for an HD production. Please let us know what you think.

I previously used A1s before switching over to the HMC-150s. I had a little issue with the A1 being sharper, but it was only an issue to my eyes. I think the EX1 takes the resolution yet another step higher than the A1, so a lot more eyes will see it (in HD that is).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keith Moreau View Post
However this is without finding the sweet spots and any good tweaking or exposure optimization. It seems to have a lot less latitude than the EX1 from what I see so far and is far softer. I really want it work out as my B camera because I like the ergonomics, the lack of rolling shutter issues, the weight and the SDHC acquisition.
There are some sweet spots on the HMC-150 where the images really pop and are very sharp. It's just too hard IMO to keep the camera there. I agree with all your other points. The 150 is a great camera if it does what you need.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keith Moreau View Post
Really the EX1 is a fine camera, the image is solid I don't think you could go wrong here. Right now the EX1 codec is easier to use on a Mac than the AVCHD footage, and there still seem to be problems with longer length takes on the HMC150.

I'll keep you posted as I form further opinions
If the EX1 were lighter, cheaper and smaller, I would have been all over it. But it's not and I can't. It's clearly at the top of the heap.

I currently really like the HMC-150. It is an excellent tool for capturing and churning out wedding and event video reliably. The AVCHD and SDHC capture has saved me hours per project over my old tape based fiddling around. It was a great choice for me.

When the Canon XH-A1 sensor is updated and it goes tapeless, or the HMC-150 gets a sensor upgrade, I will make the move. But until then, the HMC-150 is great.
__________________
Panasonic HMC150/Canon A1/JVC HD1/Sony Vegas 8.0c
Jeff Kellam is offline   Reply
Reply

DV Info Net refers all where-to-buy and where-to-rent questions exclusively to these trusted full line dealers and rental houses...

Professional Video
(800) 833-4801
Portland, OR

B&H Photo Video
(866) 521-7381
New York, NY

Z.G.C.
(973) 335-4460
Mountain Lakes, NJ

Abel Cine Tech
(888) 700-4416
N.Y. NY & L.A. CA

Precision Camera
(800) 677-1023
Austin, TX

DV Info Net also encourages you to support local businesses and buy from an authorized dealer in your neighborhood.
  You are here: DV Info Net > Panasonic P2HD / AVCCAM / AVCHD / DV Camera Systems > Panasonic AVCCAM Camcorders

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

 



Google
 

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 05:13 PM.


DV Info Net -- Real Names, Real People, Real Info!
1998-2017 The Digital Video Information Network