Ccd vs. Cmos at DVinfo.net

Go Back   DV Info Net > Panasonic P2HD / AVCCAM / AVCHD / DV Camera Systems > Panasonic AVCCAM Camcorders

Panasonic AVCCAM Camcorders
AVCHD for pro applications: AG-AC160, AC130 and other AVCCAM gear.


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old December 1st, 2009, 06:31 PM   #1
New Boot
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 19
Ccd vs. Cmos

I am new to all this technology, perhaps someone can clarify the pros/cons of each.
I am looking at purchase of either HMC40 OR HMC150, for travel and family use, but want high quality product for possible presentation for travel groups.
Why, for example, would Panasonic not put CCD's in the HMC40, is it cost?
Is there any circumstance when the CMOS is better than the CCD?
Any advice appreciated!
Michael Bargeron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 1st, 2009, 06:57 PM   #2
Inner Circle
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Tallahassee, FL
Posts: 4,100
This is something of a religious discussion.

I'll steer clear of it except to say that both technologies have their merits, and both have very real and very significant drawbacks. You just need to choose what's best for you and go with that.
__________________
DVX100, PMW-EX1, Canon 550D, FigRig, Dell Octocore, Avid MC4/5, MB Looks, RedCineX, Matrox MX02 mini, GTech RAID, Edirol R-4, Senn. G2 Evo, Countryman, Moles and Lowels.
Perrone Ford is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 1st, 2009, 09:58 PM   #3
Major Player
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Scottsdale, Arizona
Posts: 366
I'd agree with Perrone. CCDs are often considered better in low-light, but what is your definition of low-light. The CMOS in the HMC40 are often considered better for sharpness, but how sharp is sharp to you.

I think, in the end, your skill and experience with whatever camera you choose will be the deciding factor. Heck, I've seen some great iPhone videos lately.

Good luck with your decision.
Dan Carter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 1st, 2009, 11:19 PM   #4
Trustee
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 1,771
The advantages that the HMC40 has is that it's significantly sharper than the HMC150 if your shooting in broad daylight and it's obviously much more portable. It can almost pass as a consumer camera. That's my personal choice.

If you shooting in mostly places that doesn't have much lighting than the HMC150 would be the far better choice.

It's basically what Dan say except for the part about CCDs in general being better for low light. For example something like the Sony PMW-350 would kill the HMC150 in low light because the chips are much bigger.
Paulo Teixeira is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 1st, 2009, 11:43 PM   #5
New Boot
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 19
will i be able to tell a difference?

will the hmc40 have a picture with less vivid colors or less of anything that will be noticeable as compared to the same picture, in good light, from the hmc150?
Michael Bargeron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 2nd, 2009, 03:31 AM   #6
Inner Circle
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Wales
Posts: 2,130
Quote:
Originally Posted by Perrone Ford View Post
This is something of a religious discussion.

I'll steer clear of it except to say that both technologies have their merits, and both have very real and very significant drawbacks. You just need to choose what's best for you and go with that.
You're right about that Perrone, but steering clear of it won't help answer the question - and that's what we're here for!
CMOS has 2 big flaws, both due to needing a rolling shutter, the first is that you can get blank bits of the picture if you're filming while someone fires a flashgun (problem for wedding guys), the other is that you get skew in moving subjects (so that the image bends to a greater of lesser degree depending on the camera when you pan or tilt).
CCD main problems are that cameras need to be bigger as they need bigger fans to cool them, and they are more expensive for the same spec.
Steve
Steve Phillipps is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 2nd, 2009, 08:04 AM   #7
Inner Circle
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Perth, Western Australia
Posts: 8,222
Being in the wedding industry I cannot live with rolling shutter issues so it's CCD's all the way (BTW: remember that the HMC150 has 1/3" chips and the HMC40 has 1/4")

Even though I'm a die-hard fan of CCD's the HMC40 has produced some excellent video on this forum and if I was looking for something non-industry oriented then the smaller form factor of the 40 is an advantage. You are unlikely to experience flash problems in general video and as long as you are aware of the skew factor (don't film picket fences from a moving vehicle or do whip pans!!) then the HMC40 (and the lower cost) will probably suit you better.

Chris
Chris Harding is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 2nd, 2009, 11:03 AM   #8
Major Player
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Tulsa, OK
Posts: 910
The biggest disadvantages of the HMC40 vs the HMC150 are low light abilities and rolling shutter during a camera flash.

A few of the HMC40s advantages over the HMC150 are sharper image when shooting in a lot of light, smaller size, still camera abilities, batteries last longer, and a cheaper price. The HMC40 also comes with Edius Neo. I don't think Edius Neo is included in the HMC150, but I could be wrong.

For travel and family videos, the HMC40 could be perfect. The still camera capability is a nice added feature that could really come in handy for you. As long as the footage is outdoors or adequately lit indoors, you can get great images for a presentation for travel groups.
__________________
Mark Von Lanken
www.VonWeddingFilms.com
Mark Von Lanken is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 2nd, 2009, 12:10 PM   #9
Regular Crew
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: LA, California
Posts: 170
What we have with CMOS vs. CCD is a trade-off decision.

CCD:
+ No problems with rolling shutter
- May show a vertical line when pointed at a very bright light source
- Limited as far a pixel resolution on small chips (1/3" and 1/4" can not do 1920x1080 at 60p)

CMOS:
+ No vertical line when pointed at a very bright light source
+ Can have 1920x1080 on small chips
- Rolling shutter causes problems with rapid whip pans
- Rolling shutter causes problems with partial bright exposure with flash photos

The link below shows cuts from frames that were shot with a CMOS image sensor. The top left image we see a vertical line that leans to do fast movement. The Right image shows a lean in the vertical lines due to a whip pan. The bottom left shows a bright bar in the image due to a flash photo taken.

VideoExamples :: Rollong Shutter picture by KQ6WQ - Photobucket

Had Panasonic chosen to go with CCD for the HMC40, the sensor resolution would have been limited to 960x540 with pixel offset. The amount of heat generated by CCD technology limits the chip from going to higher resolution. The lower resolution would limit the sharpness of the image, but would have helped in low light. Maybe about a 2 stop gain (more or less).

With CMOS, Panasonic could take the image sensor to the full 1920x1080 resolution. This gives the camera a really sharp image, but because the pixels are smaller, it results in worse low light performance.

Another advantage of CMOS over CCD is that CMOS uses less power; so the batteries run the camera longer.

One can make a case for either technology, it's just a matter of which trade-offs best fit your needs.


Bob Diaz
Bob Diaz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 2nd, 2009, 12:53 PM   #10
New Boot
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 19
Wow, great explanations from all.
Very helpful!
Michael Bargeron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 6th, 2009, 12:50 AM   #11
Major Player
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Kelowna, BC [Canada, Eh!]
Posts: 257
Here's a video by panasonic explaining how to get around the limitations of CMOS in the HPX300


Go here and click at the HPX300 instructional video (bottom left). There is more to CMOS than just rolling shutter. I personally will avoid them till they get all these things ironed completely out.

"Working with 3MOS imagers means working with rolling shutters. Learn how to minimize the impact of skew while moving the camera. Flash Band Compensation is also covered."

Professional Digital Camcorders from Panasonic
Denny Lajeunesse is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 14th, 2009, 07:43 PM   #12
Inner Circle
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Minnesota (USA)
Posts: 2,171
It seems that CMOS has come a long way in the past few years. Used to be that noise was quite a problem in low light, with CMOS. I just got a Panasonic HMC40 recently, and the gain is noticeably cleaner than it is with a Canon XH-A1. I've shot footage at 12dB, with the HMC40, that is surprisingly clean (can approach being almost unnoticeable, depending on what you are shooting). 12dB with the XH-A1 looks radio-active by comparison. The A1 is a better camera in low-light conditions, but the difference is a heck of a lot less than I expected it would be, before I got the HMC40 and actually shot with it. I'm really impressed by what those itsy-bitsy chips can do. With ample lighting, the HMC40's recorded image quality clearly beats out the A1 (sharper and less compression artifacts). It would be interesting to compare the recorded footage, from an HMC40 and an EX1 (with both cameras properly set up), shot side-by-side in ideal lighting conditions. I bet they'd be awfully close.

About rolling shutter and flashes: Personally, I don't think rolling shutter is anywhere near as big a real-world viewing problem, with occasional camera flashes (and the like), as it's made out to be by many professional (and serious amateur) videographers and editors. The effect is just far and away more noticed by the well trained eye than it is by typical viewers. When a typical viewer watches video shot with CMOS (in real time), and there's a camera flash, more often than not, the typical viewer simply perceives a flash (nothing more and nothing less). For those of us who spend a heck of a lot of time (perhaps too much!) on the other end of cameras and editing video, of course we notice a CMOS rolling shutter flash (especially when looking at video frame by frame while editing!). We notice lots of things a typical viewer simply does not.
Robert M Wright is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 14th, 2009, 07:52 PM   #13
Inner Circle
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Minnesota (USA)
Posts: 2,171
About shooting stills with the HMC40: I'm not impressed at all. I've only tried shooting a few stills with the HMC40, but they downright sucked. Perhaps I'm doing something way wrong, but from what I've seen thus far, my old 4 megapixel Sony pocket size point-and-shoot camera yields much better images. Heck, I even like the stills out a Canon HV20 better.
Robert M Wright is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 15th, 2009, 08:48 AM   #14
Major Player
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Virginia Beach, VA
Posts: 656
Regardless of the CCD vs CMOS issues, for family and travel use, the HMC-40 wins hands down due to lower cost and smaller size and the low light sensitivity is acceptable for the intended purpose.

Disclaimer, I have the HMC-150, but not the HMC-40. Carrying essentially another suitcase for the HMC-150 is not cool for family travel.
__________________
Panasonic HMC150/Canon A1/JVC HD1/Sony Vegas 8.0c
Jeff Kellam is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 15th, 2009, 01:01 PM   #15
Regular Crew
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: LA, California
Posts: 170
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert M Wright View Post
About shooting stills with the HMC40: I'm not impressed at all. I've only tried shooting a few stills with the HMC40, but they downright sucked. Perhaps I'm doing something way wrong, but from what I've seen thus far, my old 4 megapixel Sony pocket size point-and-shoot camera yields much better images. Heck, I even like the stills out a Canon HV20 better.
I was not impressed with the still image I saw from the HMC-40, but in all fairness, it was at the highest resolution (10MP). My guess is that by trying to push the resolution way beyond the native resolution of the image sensors, the image isn't very good.

As a lower resolution image, it would look good. The 1920x1080 frames from the 1080p video look good.


Bob Diaz
Bob Diaz is offline   Reply
Reply

DV Info Net refers all where-to-buy and where-to-rent questions exclusively to these trusted full line dealers and rental houses...

Professional Video
(800) 833-4801
Portland, OR

B&H Photo Video
(866) 521-7381
New York, NY

Z.G.C.
(973) 335-4460
Mountain Lakes, NJ

Abel Cine Tech
(888) 700-4416
N.Y. NY & L.A. CA

Precision Camera
(800) 677-1023
Austin, TX

DV Info Net also encourages you to support local businesses and buy from an authorized dealer in your neighborhood.
  You are here: DV Info Net > Panasonic P2HD / AVCCAM / AVCHD / DV Camera Systems > Panasonic AVCCAM Camcorders

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

 



Google
 

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 01:01 AM.


DV Info Net -- Real Names, Real People, Real Info!
1998-2017 The Digital Video Information Network