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Old February 10th, 2011, 07:41 PM   #1
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AF100 vs the DSLRs

I've spent the day bemoaning the fact that I can't seem to find a cam that can produce decent slow motion at 1080p. That all changed today when I learnt about this camera.

I've spent most of my day reading reviews on it and inspecting test footage uploaded online, I believe I may indeed be a fan! No moire/aliasing issues compared to the DSLRs is a huge bonus in itself, although I'm not convinced about low light and 2x magnification comparisons (compared to 5D mark II).

Anyone here tried and tested both their 5D mark II (or similar DSLR) verses this AF100 / 101 cam?
Opinions? Would you permanently trade your 5D2 for this camera?
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Old February 10th, 2011, 07:48 PM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kris Koster View Post
Would you permanently trade your 5D2 for this camera?
I would, and I did. The 1080/60-frame option is just one of the things that makes the AF-100 a much better video camera than my 5DII. Not that the 5DII can't produce good results, but the AF is a purpose-built video camera, with the tools and functions that make using it a pleasure.
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Old February 10th, 2011, 08:18 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kris Koster View Post
I've spent the day bemoaning the fact that I can't seem to find a cam that can produce decent slow motion at 1080p. That all changed today when I learnt about this camera.

I've spent most of my day reading reviews on it and inspecting test footage uploaded online, I believe I may indeed be a fan! No moire/aliasing issues compared to the DSLRs is a huge bonus in itself, although I'm not convinced about low light and 2x magnification comparisons (compared to 5D mark II).

Anyone here tried and tested both their 5D mark II (or similar DSLR) verses this AF100 / 101 cam?
Opinions? Would you permanently trade your 5D2 for this camera?
I have the AF100 and the Canon. No I would not trade the 5DmkII for an AF100, they are different.
Neither is an ENG cam.
Both shoot great video with a bit of work.
The AF is a real video camera (not ENG, and it has great audio).
The 5D is still better at SDOF (this can also be liability), and it is better in low light. And wide lens choices are greater.

Now if you had asked would I trade my 7D for an AF100 the answer is absolutely.

The 5DmkII has some great qualities. And I shoot a lot of timelapse, even HDR timelapse, the AF100 can't do this anywhere near as well (full 22mpx RAW bracketed HDR shots automatically). And it is fantastic still camera. Also the 5D is great at low key shooting, no one thinks you are shooting serious HD, this can be a + or a -.

The AF100 is a real video camera with real audio options TC , built in ND's and a clean SDI out, so if I was just shooting video then maybe yes. But they are really different and complimentary, not really competitors.

I love both cams. And I am glad I don't have to choose. I also have an F3 on order. That will make things real interesting.
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Old February 11th, 2011, 09:56 AM   #4
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The AF100 may well record over-cranked 1080p but it's not much of a gain over the EX3 or XF305 because the AF100 has a vertical res limit (and this is from Pana) of 800 lines. Real-world shooting will more likely max out at 700 lines... That's one of the reasons fine detail on a big wide always looks just a bit soft on the AF100: It isn't resolving much closer to true 1080 than the HDSLRs... It's more like a decent 720p camera as far as resolution is concerned.
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Old February 11th, 2011, 10:20 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Antony Michael Wilson View Post
The AF100 may well record over-cranked 1080p but it's not much of a gain over the EX3 or XF305 because the AF100 has a vertical res limit (and this is from Pana) of 800 lines. Real-world shooting will more likely max out at 700 lines... That's one of the reasons fine detail on a big wide always looks just a bit soft on the AF100: It isn't resolving much closer to true 1080 than the HDSLRs... It's more like a decent 720p camera as far as resolution is concerned.
The original poster did not ask about your opinion on the EX3 or the XF305, or your thoughts on how may lines of resolution the AF100 has. Kris asked specifically for users of both the AF100 and the 5DmkII to comment on slow motion work with said cameras. If you own both cameras and would like to comment on doing slow motion work with them fine. Otherwise keep the trash talk elsewhere!

Kris, In my experience the slow motion footage from the AF100 works very well. And it can be slowed down even further in apps like Motion to great effect. But we are still hanging on to our DSLR cameras as they have their place like any tool does.

All the Best!

Dave
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Old February 11th, 2011, 09:05 PM   #6
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If I had to choose only one, or if I had to sell a dslr to get the funds for the af100. I would choose the af100 hands down. This is from experience.
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Old February 12th, 2011, 02:39 AM   #7
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Kris, just to clarify, I own both a 5DmarkII and an AF101. The AF is certainly a huge improvement over the 5D in terms of aliasing and moire (none to be concerned about) and has all the obvious advantages of a dedicated video camera such as XLR audio with phantom power, video-centric menu controls, built-in ND, much less CMOS skew etc. etc. I use the 5D primarily for stills but it is a great tool to have in low light or when you need to be less obvious about your filming. The 5D also handles highlights/clipping a lot more gracefully. The AF is just plain nasty in this regard.

And yes, the AF's over-crank is as free from aliasing and moire as the normal shooting mode - it's just not really 1080p.

However, I think it is important and entirely relevant to point out on a thread beginning,

'I've spent the day bemoaning the fact that I can't seem to find a cam that can produce decent slow motion at 1080p. That all changed today when I learnt about this camera.'

that the AF simply doesn't resolve any more detail in slo-mo or normal speed than around 700 lines. This is not an improvement in terms of resolution over the 720p over-crank on established cameras like the EX3.

This is not from theory, internet forums or a desire to 'trash talk' the AF. It is from real experience from a camera I own and I think it's important to point out its short-comings as well.

David, I see no need for the aggression in your post and I would appreciate it if you could be a little more civil!
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Old February 12th, 2011, 05:22 AM   #8
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You could have said that in your first post.
And not to get into a resolution war, because I hate measureabaters, but 1920 x 1080 is a frame size.
I think you will find many different measurements of horizontal resolution from different cameras that output a 1920 x 1080 signal. We charted the AF100 at slightly under 800 lines. We also charted a Sony F35 at slightly under 1000 lines. Does that mean the F35 is not a true 1080 camera because it only resolves 1000 lines of horizontal resolution? Absolutely not.
Hey the EX3 is a nice small sensor camera. But if the original poster is interested in a large sensor camera capable of doing good slomo on a budget, the AF100 hits the spot. The next step up in a large sensor cine style camera is a huge jump in price.

All the Best!

Dave
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Old February 21st, 2011, 01:08 PM   #9
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Re: AF100 vs the DSLRs

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kris Koster View Post
Anyone here tried and tested both their 5D mark II (or similar DSLR) verses this AF100 / 101 cam?
Opinions? Would you permanently trade your 5D2 for this camera?
I'd have no problem giving up my 5D2 to keep my AF100. I'd miss the ultra-wide (12mm is the widest lens I have for my 5D2), but can get an 7mm (7-14 zoom) x2 crop for the AF100, so could live with that. I'd also miss guerilla shooting in places I'd never get away with an AF100. That's about it.

(I'm assuming you're letting me keep the 5D2 as a still camera though! :)
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Old February 21st, 2011, 02:13 PM   #10
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Re: AF100 vs the DSLRs

Kris,

You'd be surprised how little it takes to get high-quality in-camera slo-motion effects (over-cranking). It's less to do with the camera and more about how much light is coming into the camera AND, that you're not dealing with a lot of horizontal motion (which is the bane of *any* rolling shutter camera - which means *every* AVCHD-format cam today, unfortunately).

Over-cranking is one of my most favorite in-camera tricks to pull off and one reason I fell in love with Panny's "poor-mans Varicam" options going back to the HVX200; nothing replaces the cleanliness of a global shutter when it comes to over-cranking, period.

I can tell you from years of experience that over-cranking combined with Twixtor in FCP (or any other compatible NLE) is an absolute killer combination. Both myself and my lead editor have achieved unbelievably god-like, organic-feeling, film-like slo-mo using that simple combination - including source footage from a 5DMkII. (have not shot the 7D but technically slo-mo from that cam would be even better.)

The 5D MkII is capable of stunning slo-mo - with the caveat that you absolutely must be careful of motion artifacts (left-right movement especially) and being aware of just exactly how fast either your subject and or your camera panning movement is and not going beyond the point of no return with rolling-shutter being in the mix.

I did shoot a few over-crank test sequences with the AF100 and was very pleased, but again that rolling shutter quickly shows it's ugly head if things get moving too fast. Does the AF100 look better than the 5DMkII? Yes, mostly because of the near elimination of moire and other AVCHD-related artifacts, but is the improvement night-and-day? Not exactly.

As others have stated, DSLR's vs a "real" video camera quandary has been debated even before the AF100 was released, and if financially feasible I'd keep both on hand since they're totally different tools and will complement each other rather than one being the "killer" to the other.

I'm in the process of finalizing content for a one-day "Filmmakers Workshop" that I'm hosting next month; I'll make sure to include this topic in the list of subject material - I think it's worth discussion.
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Old February 27th, 2011, 03:31 PM   #11
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Re: AF100 vs the DSLRs

Quote:
Originally Posted by Antony Michael Wilson View Post
The AF100 may well record over-cranked 1080p but it's not much of a gain over the EX3 or XF305 because the AF100 has a vertical res limit (and this is from Pana) of 800 lines. Real-world shooting will more likely max out at 700 lines... That's one of the reasons fine detail on a big wide always looks just a bit soft on the AF100: It isn't resolving much closer to true 1080 than the HDSLRs... It's more like a decent 720p camera as far as resolution is concerned.
Antony,

Many thanks for this info; I for one appreciate it. I was prevously unaware of this res limit and IMO it is entirely relevant to the thread. I am wondering how much better the F3 will look in the same type of scenario (big wide)?
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Old March 5th, 2011, 10:24 PM   #12
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Re: AF100 vs the DSLRs

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Lane View Post
Kris,

You'd be surprised how little it takes to get high-quality in-camera slo-motion effects (over-cranking). It's less to do with the camera and more about how much light is coming into the camera AND, that you're not dealing with a lot of horizontal motion (which is the bane of *any* rolling shutter camera - which means *every* AVCHD-format cam today, unfortunately).

Over-cranking is one of my most favorite in-camera tricks to pull off and one reason I fell in love with Panny's "poor-mans Varicam" options going back to the HVX200; nothing replaces the cleanliness of a global shutter when it comes to over-cranking, period.

I can tell you from years of experience that over-cranking combined with Twixtor in FCP (or any other compatible NLE) is an absolute killer combination. Both myself and my lead editor have achieved unbelievably god-like, organic-feeling, film-like slo-mo using that simple combination - including source footage from a 5DMkII. (have not shot the 7D but technically slo-mo from that cam would be even better.)

The 5D MkII is capable of stunning slo-mo - with the caveat that you absolutely must be careful of motion artifacts (left-right movement especially) and being aware of just exactly how fast either your subject and or your camera panning movement is and not going beyond the point of no return with rolling-shutter being in the mix.

I did shoot a few over-crank test sequences with the AF100 and was very pleased, but again that rolling shutter quickly shows it's ugly head if things get moving too fast. Does the AF100 look better than the 5DMkII? Yes, mostly because of the near elimination of moire and other AVCHD-related artifacts, but is the improvement night-and-day? Not exactly.

As others have stated, DSLR's vs a "real" video camera quandary has been debated even before the AF100 was released, and if financially feasible I'd keep both on hand since they're totally different tools and will complement each other rather than one being the "killer" to the other.

I'm in the process of finalizing content for a one-day "Filmmakers Workshop" that I'm hosting next month; I'll make sure to include this topic in the list of subject material - I think it's worth discussion.
Good evening Robert,

Let me ask you a few questions about your answer:

Do you use 1080p30 on your AG-AF100 for slow motion?

Do you HAVE to use 720p60i with your 5DMKii for nice slow motion? Or can you use 1080p30?

Do you use Twixtor or Twixtor Pro? If Twixtor Pro... Could you please give me a little blurb on why it'll be worth it (if so) over the regular version of Twixtor?

I am trying to purchase Twixtor and any input on both versions will be very much appreciated.

Thanks very much!!
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Old March 5th, 2011, 10:33 PM   #13
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Re: AF100 vs the DSLRs

FYI, there is no 60p on the 5D. It is on the 7d, T2i, 60d, and now T3i.
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