The death of Mini DV - Panas ZERO dropout and storage solution at DVinfo.net

Peter Jefferson · September 17th, 2003, 11:24 AM

check it out.. cant wait, heres hoping they bring out a firewire box which allows us to connect these things to our DVX's or any other DV cam...

imagine NO MORE TAPE and NO MORE DROPOUTS, and better yet, NO MORE CAPTURING HOUR UPON HOUR of video to the PC!!!!

WOOOOOHOOOOOOO!!!

http://www.abcdv.com/article/articleview/126/1/53/

Jan De Wever · September 17th, 2003, 12:37 PM

Just heard it, the 4 Gig cards will cost around 2000 USD. Panasonic plans on bundling a 5-cards set with the AJ-SPX800 camera wehn they release it. Most likely to mask that cost :-)

Alex Knappenberger · September 17th, 2003, 12:44 PM

Yikes! 2 grand for 4GB? I'll stick with tape for now, until we are able to get enough to hold a hour on for your everyday camcorder for around $10. ;)

Frank Granovski · September 17th, 2003, 01:17 PM

At that price, it certainly won't be intended for the consumer market. Like Alex says, "I'll stick with tape for now."

Jan De Wever · September 17th, 2003, 02:21 PM

Look at it this way, from a TV-station point of view: how much is your tape cost and maintenance over 4 years (typical lifetime of such a camera in ENG work)? Compare that to these 5 P2-cards you will need in a typical shooting condition.

Also remember Moore's law: all IT products double in speed/performance each year while dropping in price by 40% ...

Gints Klimanis · September 17th, 2003, 03:48 PM

A 2GByte USB 2.0 Compact flash card can be purchased today for
for about $500. If tape is never used, the device will slowly pay for itself. The MAJOR advantage is eliminating the
video digital capture overhead, not only reducing transfer time by
probably 1/2 but also the camcorder setup/teardown and the constant searching overhead. Just imagine a capture where you can instantly index your scenes because the flash memory access is not serialized like tape access. Set your capture points/file and
walk away for a break. This is the major reason I'm stuck with
crappy video from digital cameras. The digital camera sceneselection and transfer take so much less time that I actually USE the videos instead of doing, ahem, archiving on miniDV.

A major disadvantage for USB flash cards is their flimsy construction in their current format. My 64 MByte key chain broke at the connector. These devices need to be made with a solid metal case. I bought it for $15, but still, it's not suitable on the key chain.

Adrian Douglas · September 17th, 2003, 07:20 PM

The JVC DR-DV5000U looks to be the near future and it's reasonably priced. It's only for the DV5000 at the moment but i can see other manufactures following suit. Sony has their DV1, JVC have this, maybe it will be an accessory for the next XL version.

Barry Green · September 17th, 2003, 08:42 PM

The JVC unit is actually a FireStore FS-3. About $2000.

There are many others out on the market, including the Laird CapDiv (about $1300) and the CitiDisk DV (about $600 or so). These are hard disks mounted in portable cases with power supplies, that connect to the camera by firewire, and record directly to disk so you can unplug it from the camera, plug it into your computer, and edit the clips immediately.

It'd be nice if it could use solid state storage or some other RAM-type system, but at $2000 for 4GB, the $600-for-40GB hard disk looks like a more viable solution right now.

Jeff Donald · September 17th, 2003, 10:20 PM

I think the announcement that tape is dead is a bit premature. How about a show of hands of everybody ready to spend $2,000 USD for about 15 to 20 minutes of recording time. If you shoot ENG it might be worth considering, but for anybody else it's just not there.

The problem with the HD recording systems is that you need 2 drives or you haven't really saved anything. One drive doesn't allow you to shoot and edit at the same time. The size is limiting too, 40gb is only 3 hours. I've been known to shoot 20 to 30 hours of tapes in a week when I'm working on a project with a client. So, I would need 10 of those drives at $600 each. Boy, $6,000 buys an awful lot of tape.

I think Alex got it right. In about 10 years it will be practical and affordable to switch.

Bill Ravens · September 18th, 2003, 08:28 AM

Two things to note:
1-The Focus Enhancements FS-3 with Anton Bauer battery system for the XL1s is $1500US by mail.
2-ADS just released a one button 30 Gb HD system for $700US, half the price of the FS-3 and half the features.

Unless you're a gadget freak, the ADS Pyro system is suitable for a couple of hours worth recording on an interchangeable hard drive system. I've ordered one to check it out. I beleive it acts like a removeable hard drive when plugged into the firewire port on my computer, has an onboard lithium rechargeable battery, and is small enought to be unobtrusively worn on my belt....smaller than a battery pack or the old CAPDIV. I beleive it rivals the size of the FS-3, could be mounted to the camera, but why lug the weight on my shoulder when I can put it on my belt?

Why fuss with expensive and flimsy memory cards? HD recording is here, now.

Peter Jefferson · September 18th, 2003, 10:45 AM

i dont think people are getting my post...

i put this up as a look towards the future, not the be all and end all..
im sure there will be many solutions coming to the fore....

memory cards and HDD seem to the be the way were going with DV, and it can only be a good thing.

Jeff Donald · September 18th, 2003, 11:41 AM

Quote:

i dont think people are getting my post...

If you hadn't announced that mini DV was dead and that there was no more need for tape and no more dropouts, the posts might have a different tone.

Peter Jefferson · September 19th, 2003, 03:15 AM

building up a bit of excitement never hurt anyone... especially when its the beginning of a major change to the way we do things.

on top of that i didnt mention anything about eta or cost.

its just a thread to show what is goin on out there

That is all

on a side note,
I run a couple of forums and with our tech forum, we have over 14000 members.

Bit of a gripe here, but in THIS forum, where the age group is higher, education levels is higher and the household income is also higher, some of the comments i have heard <not just directed to me, but within afew other threads from different ppl as well> make me wonder why i bother posting, as there is an EXCESS of nit picking.
In this board, ive noticed people cant jsut leave it be...

Considering the "level" of patronage here, i have never seen so many retortic and pedantic counter comments... EVER.

This isnt directed at anyone, its just a general observation throughout the whole DVinfo forum.

Its sad when you think about it, as considering the high level of intelligence from the members here, one would like to think that there would be no need for the kind of comments mentioned above.

If we cant discuss something without it being over-analysed to the point of distraction, whats the point in starting a thread?
The title clearly states Panas zero dropout and storage solution.

and yes, one day miniDV will die... and this is the beginning of that phase.

is it that hard to accept?

who knows...

If i notice a forum is slow in activity, i will do what i can to spice it up a bit. This comes from years of BBS, NG and thruout the early days of VBulletin. Hence the lead in title.

Whats a forum without a bit of controversy? Whats a forum without speculation? whats a forum without activity??

i think we all know the answer to that...

Im just here to post any new info i come across and help people out when they need it... and maybe one day if i ever need help, i can ask for it and the same courtesy would be given to me.

Bill Ravens · September 19th, 2003, 06:45 AM

WELCOME to the world.
Welcome to the sidebar story, individual experience and personal opinion.
We Americans are a contentious lot, videographers more contentious than most, and still image photographers are the whiniest bunch you'll ever not want to meet.
Such is life.

Nathan Gifford · September 19th, 2003, 07:49 AM

With disk prices falling so quickly, miniDV will eventually be only on the consumer end. Heck, 160 GB Maxtor sells for less than $120 USD. If it can be ruggedize then people will use it in the field.

September 17th, 2003, 11:24 AM	#1
Peter Jefferson Inner Circle Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Aus Posts: 3,884	The death of Mini DV?? - Panas ZERO dropout and storage solution check it out.. cant wait, heres hoping they bring out a firewire box which allows us to connect these things to our DVX's or any other DV cam... imagine NO MORE TAPE and NO MORE DROPOUTS, and better yet, NO MORE CAPTURING HOUR UPON HOUR of video to the PC!!!! WOOOOOHOOOOOOO!!! http://www.abcdv.com/article/articleview/126/1/53/

September 17th, 2003, 12:37 PM	#2
Jan De Wever ABCDV.com -- Top DV Resource Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Kessel-Lo, Belgium (near Brussels) Posts: 27	Just heard it, the 4 Gig cards will cost around 2000 USD. Panasonic plans on bundling a 5-cards set with the AJ-SPX800 camera wehn they release it. Most likely to mask that cost :-) __________________ Jan De Wever, Belgium webmaster www.abcdv.com

September 17th, 2003, 02:21 PM	#5
Jan De Wever ABCDV.com -- Top DV Resource Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Kessel-Lo, Belgium (near Brussels) Posts: 27	Look at it this way, from a TV-station point of view: how much is your tape cost and maintenance over 4 years (typical lifetime of such a camera in ENG work)? Compare that to these 5 P2-cards you will need in a typical shooting condition. Also remember Moore's law: all IT products double in speed/performance each year while dropping in price by 40% ... __________________ Jan De Wever, Belgium webmaster www.abcdv.com

September 17th, 2003, 07:20 PM	#7
Adrian Douglas Trustee Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Chigasaki, Japan. Posts: 1,660	The JVC DR-DV5000U looks to be the near future and it's reasonably priced. It's only for the DV5000 at the moment but i can see other manufactures following suit. Sony has their DV1, JVC have this, maybe it will be an accessory for the next XL version. __________________ Adrian DVInfo.net Search for quick answers Where to buy? From the best in the business...DVInfo.net sponsors

September 17th, 2003, 10:20 PM	#9
Jeff Donald Warden Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Clearwater, FL Posts: 8,287	I think the announcement that tape is dead is a bit premature. How about a show of hands of everybody ready to spend $2,000 USD for about 15 to 20 minutes of recording time. If you shoot ENG it might be worth considering, but for anybody else it's just not there. The problem with the HD recording systems is that you need 2 drives or you haven't really saved anything. One drive doesn't allow you to shoot and edit at the same time. The size is limiting too, 40gb is only 3 hours. I've been known to shoot 20 to 30 hours of tapes in a week when I'm working on a project with a client. So, I would need 10 of those drives at $600 each. Boy, $6,000 buys an awful lot of tape. I think Alex got it right. In about 10 years it will be practical and affordable to switch. __________________ Jeff Donald Carpe Diem Search DVinfo.net for quick answers \| Where to Buy? From the best in the business: DVinfo.net sponsors

September 17th, 2003, 12:44 PM	#3
Alex Knappenberger High School Student Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Canton, Ohio, USA Posts: 609	Yikes! 2 grand for 4GB? I'll stick with tape for now, until we are able to get enough to hold a hour on for your everyday camcorder for around $10. ;)

September 17th, 2003, 01:17 PM	#4
Frank Granovski Outer Circle Join Date: May 2002 Location: Hope, BC Posts: 7,524	At that price, it certainly won't be intended for the consumer market. Like Alex says, "I'll stick with tape for now."

September 17th, 2003, 03:48 PM	#6
Gints Klimanis Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: San Jose, CA Posts: 2,222	A 2GByte USB 2.0 Compact flash card can be purchased today for for about $500. If tape is never used, the device will slowly pay for itself. The MAJOR advantage is eliminating the video digital capture overhead, not only reducing transfer time by probably 1/2 but also the camcorder setup/teardown and the constant searching overhead. Just imagine a capture where you can instantly index your scenes because the flash memory access is not serialized like tape access. Set your capture points/file and walk away for a break. This is the major reason I'm stuck with crappy video from digital cameras. The digital camera sceneselection and transfer take so much less time that I actually USE the videos instead of doing, ahem, archiving on miniDV. A major disadvantage for USB flash cards is their flimsy construction in their current format. My 64 MByte key chain broke at the connector. These devices need to be made with a solid metal case. I bought it for $15, but still, it's not suitable on the key chain.

September 17th, 2003, 08:42 PM	#8
Barry Green Barry Wan Kenobi Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: North Carolina Posts: 3,863	The JVC unit is actually a FireStore FS-3. About $2000. There are many others out on the market, including the Laird CapDiv (about $1300) and the CitiDisk DV (about $600 or so). These are hard disks mounted in portable cases with power supplies, that connect to the camera by firewire, and record directly to disk so you can unplug it from the camera, plug it into your computer, and edit the clips immediately. It'd be nice if it could use solid state storage or some other RAM-type system, but at $2000 for 4GB, the $600-for-40GB hard disk looks like a more viable solution right now.

September 18th, 2003, 08:28 AM	#10
Bill Ravens Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: santa fe, nm Posts: 3,264 Images: 10	Two things to note: 1-The Focus Enhancements FS-3 with Anton Bauer battery system for the XL1s is $1500US by mail. 2-ADS just released a one button 30 Gb HD system for $700US, half the price of the FS-3 and half the features. Unless you're a gadget freak, the ADS Pyro system is suitable for a couple of hours worth recording on an interchangeable hard drive system. I've ordered one to check it out. I beleive it acts like a removeable hard drive when plugged into the firewire port on my computer, has an onboard lithium rechargeable battery, and is small enought to be unobtrusively worn on my belt....smaller than a battery pack or the old CAPDIV. I beleive it rivals the size of the FS-3, could be mounted to the camera, but why lug the weight on my shoulder when I can put it on my belt? Why fuss with expensive and flimsy memory cards? HD recording is here, now.

September 18th, 2003, 10:45 AM	#11
Peter Jefferson Inner Circle Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Aus Posts: 3,884	i dont think people are getting my post... i put this up as a look towards the future, not the be all and end all.. im sure there will be many solutions coming to the fore.... memory cards and HDD seem to the be the way were going with DV, and it can only be a good thing.

September 19th, 2003, 03:15 AM	#13
Peter Jefferson Inner Circle Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Aus Posts: 3,884	building up a bit of excitement never hurt anyone... especially when its the beginning of a major change to the way we do things. on top of that i didnt mention anything about eta or cost. its just a thread to show what is goin on out there That is all on a side note, I run a couple of forums and with our tech forum, we have over 14000 members. Bit of a gripe here, but in THIS forum, where the age group is higher, education levels is higher and the household income is also higher, some of the comments i have heard <not just directed to me, but within afew other threads from different ppl as well> make me wonder why i bother posting, as there is an EXCESS of nit picking. In this board, ive noticed people cant jsut leave it be... Considering the "level" of patronage here, i have never seen so many retortic and pedantic counter comments... EVER. This isnt directed at anyone, its just a general observation throughout the whole DVinfo forum. Its sad when you think about it, as considering the high level of intelligence from the members here, one would like to think that there would be no need for the kind of comments mentioned above. If we cant discuss something without it being over-analysed to the point of distraction, whats the point in starting a thread? The title clearly states Panas zero dropout and storage solution. and yes, one day miniDV will die... and this is the beginning of that phase. is it that hard to accept? who knows... If i notice a forum is slow in activity, i will do what i can to spice it up a bit. This comes from years of BBS, NG and thruout the early days of VBulletin. Hence the lead in title. Whats a forum without a bit of controversy? Whats a forum without speculation? whats a forum without activity?? i think we all know the answer to that... Im just here to post any new info i come across and help people out when they need it... and maybe one day if i ever need help, i can ask for it and the same courtesy would be given to me.

September 19th, 2003, 06:45 AM	#14
Bill Ravens Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: santa fe, nm Posts: 3,264 Images: 10	WELCOME to the world. Welcome to the sidebar story, individual experience and personal opinion. We Americans are a contentious lot, videographers more contentious than most, and still image photographers are the whiniest bunch you'll ever not want to meet. Such is life.

September 19th, 2003, 07:49 AM	#15
Nathan Gifford Wrangler Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Tickfaw, LA Posts: 1,217	With disk prices falling so quickly, miniDV will eventually be only on the consumer end. Heck, 160 GB Maxtor sells for less than $120 USD. If it can be ruggedize then people will use it in the field. __________________ Nathan Gifford Southern Cyclist Magazine & Productions For quick answers try our Search! To see me and Rob Lohman click here

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