Pixels and CCD size

Chris Hurd · May 21st, 2003, 11:08 AM

<< But on a mega resolution chip, you'll get enough info for the DV system to produce excellent picture. >>

There's much more to it than that. The type of color filtration mask has more bearing than the pixel count. For example, a sub-megapixel chip with a primary color filter will produce a "better looking" image than a megapixel-plus CCD with a complimentary color filter.

Megapixel-plus chips may produce still image captures with larger print output sizes from a camcorder, but standard definition DV is still 720x480.

Yik Kuen · May 28th, 2003, 07:41 AM

Hi,

I think that the post-processing behind a 1-CCD cam is the most important factor that determines the quality. The DSP would need to 'fill' the gap by approximating the other two colors not in the current grid array.

I guess, that explains why 1-CCD cams produces 'color' video noise whereas 3-CCDs models output less prominent monochrome noise.

However, higher pixel count CCD does capture more precise details/colors (better pixel picking) especially when shooting small/complex scene where a specific color falls between 2 CCD pixel.

Frank Granovski · May 28th, 2003, 02:57 PM

What exactly is JVC's "high band" CCD? How does it improve the video? Anyone?

Yik Kuen · May 28th, 2003, 06:27 PM

Most prob. the 'high-band' processor refers to more advanced DSP processing technology, especially with higher horizontal resolution captures.

Tony Leung · June 15th, 2003, 06:37 PM

Hi,

Just compare from the CCD of DV, there are 3 factors may affect the output quality:

Definitely 3CCD is better than 1CCD
Definitely larger CCD is better i.e. 1/4 > 1/6
More pixel is better although DV output is 720x480 so 2M > 1M > 68K

However the point is which factor is more important? For example Panasonic GS100K is 1/6 3CCD 700K pixel. How to compare it with Sony TRV60/70/80 which is 1/4 1CCD 2M pixel?

Any simple formula can tell us the comparison?
e.g. 3 * 700K * (1/6) vs 1 * 2M * (1/4) ?

Frank Granovski · June 16th, 2003, 11:44 PM

Don't go by the total CCD pixels, go by the video effective CCD pixels. After all, it's these pixels that capture the video. Regarding CCD size (and pixel size), the larger these are, the less light they'll need. My old DVL9500s have a 1/3" CCD, with big 380K pixels (360K video effective), so I can shoot in lower light where other cams are blind.

Tony Leung · June 17th, 2003, 04:30 AM

<<<-- Originally posted by Frank Granovski : Don't go by the total CCD pixels, go by the video effective CCD pixels. After all, it's these pixels that capture the video. Regarding CCD size (and pixel size), the larger these are, the less light they'll need. My old DVL9500s have a 1/3" CCD, with big 380K pixels (360K video effective), so I can shoot in lower light where other cams are blind. -->>>
Hi Frank,

Agreed with your point that larger CCD is definitelly better (of course if it is F1.2-F1.4 len is even better). However now compact DV seldom has 1/3" CCD size and 1/4" CCD or 1/6" CCD is common.

It is now perfect if a compact DV can have 3CCD of 1/4" size and with 1M effective pixel at least.

Which compact DV model has such config or it is a dream?

Frank Granovski · June 17th, 2003, 12:50 PM

Quote:

t is now perfect if a compact DV can have 3CCD of 1/4" size and with 1M effective pixel at least. Which compact DV model has such config or it is a dream?

Do you mean 1 CCD cams or 3 CCD cams? With 3 CCD cams it's the video effective CCD pixels X 3. So cams like the PV-DV953/MX5000 and PDX10 are right up there. Over 1000K on a 1 chip? That would be the Sony TRV70/80.

Tony Leung · June 18th, 2003, 05:38 AM

<<<-- Originally posted by Frank Granovski : Do you mean 1 CCD cams or 3 CCD cams? With 3 CCD cams it's the video effective CCD pixels X 3. So cams like the PV-DV953/MX5000 and PDX10 are right up there. Over 1000K on a 1 chip? That would be the Sony TRV70/80. -->>>
Hi, what I mean is a compact DV with 3 CCD and each CCD size should be at least 1/4" and may have 1M pixel for each CCD. It may not be possible now but from the model release speed of 3CCD vendor like Panasonic, 1 or 1.5 year later may have such model.

Frank Granovski · June 18th, 2003, 01:48 PM

The PAL MX300 and MX350 are compact with 1/4" CCDs, and the total (X 3) video effective pixels are over 1M.

May 21st, 2003, 11:08 AM	#16
Chris Hurd Obstreperous Rex Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: San Marcos, TX Posts: 27,366 Images: 513	<< But on a mega resolution chip, you'll get enough info for the DV system to produce excellent picture. >> There's much more to it than that. The type of color filtration mask has more bearing than the pixel count. For example, a sub-megapixel chip with a primary color filter will produce a "better looking" image than a megapixel-plus CCD with a complimentary color filter. Megapixel-plus chips may produce still image captures with larger print output sizes from a camcorder, but standard definition DV is still 720x480. __________________ CH Search DV Info Net \| 20 years of DVi \| ...Tuesday is Soylent Green Day!

June 15th, 2003, 06:37 PM	#20
Tony Leung Regular Crew Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 46	Hi, Just compare from the CCD of DV, there are 3 factors may affect the output quality: Definitely 3CCD is better than 1CCD Definitely larger CCD is better i.e. 1/4 > 1/6 More pixel is better although DV output is 720x480 so 2M > 1M > 68K However the point is which factor is more important? For example Panasonic GS100K is 1/6 3CCD 700K pixel. How to compare it with Sony TRV60/70/80 which is 1/4 1CCD 2M pixel? Any simple formula can tell us the comparison? e.g. 3 * 700K * (1/6) vs 1 * 2M * (1/4) ? __________________ Travel Photos - http://www.fotop.net/hktraveller Traveller Diary - http://hktraveller.blogspot.com

June 17th, 2003, 04:30 AM	#22
Tony Leung Regular Crew Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 46	<<<-- Originally posted by Frank Granovski : Don't go by the total CCD pixels, go by the video effective CCD pixels. After all, it's these pixels that capture the video. Regarding CCD size (and pixel size), the larger these are, the less light they'll need. My old DVL9500s have a 1/3" CCD, with big 380K pixels (360K video effective), so I can shoot in lower light where other cams are blind. -->>> Hi Frank, Agreed with your point that larger CCD is definitelly better (of course if it is F1.2-F1.4 len is even better). However now compact DV seldom has 1/3" CCD size and 1/4" CCD or 1/6" CCD is common. It is now perfect if a compact DV can have 3CCD of 1/4" size and with 1M effective pixel at least. Which compact DV model has such config or it is a dream? __________________ Travel Photos - http://www.fotop.net/hktraveller Traveller Diary - http://hktraveller.blogspot.com

June 18th, 2003, 05:38 AM	#24
Tony Leung Regular Crew Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 46	<<<-- Originally posted by Frank Granovski : Do you mean 1 CCD cams or 3 CCD cams? With 3 CCD cams it's the video effective CCD pixels X 3. So cams like the PV-DV953/MX5000 and PDX10 are right up there. Over 1000K on a 1 chip? That would be the Sony TRV70/80. -->>> Hi, what I mean is a compact DV with 3 CCD and each CCD size should be at least 1/4" and may have 1M pixel for each CCD. It may not be possible now but from the model release speed of 3CCD vendor like Panasonic, 1 or 1.5 year later may have such model. __________________ Travel Photos - http://www.fotop.net/hktraveller Traveller Diary - http://hktraveller.blogspot.com

May 28th, 2003, 07:41 AM	#17
Yik Kuen Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Johor Bahru, Malaysia Posts: 135	Hi, I think that the post-processing behind a 1-CCD cam is the most important factor that determines the quality. The DSP would need to 'fill' the gap by approximating the other two colors not in the current grid array. I guess, that explains why 1-CCD cams produces 'color' video noise whereas 3-CCDs models output less prominent monochrome noise. However, higher pixel count CCD does capture more precise details/colors (better pixel picking) especially when shooting small/complex scene where a specific color falls between 2 CCD pixel.

May 28th, 2003, 02:57 PM	#18
Frank Granovski Outer Circle Join Date: May 2002 Location: Hope, BC Posts: 7,524	What exactly is JVC's "high band" CCD? How does it improve the video? Anyone?

May 28th, 2003, 06:27 PM	#19
Yik Kuen Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Johor Bahru, Malaysia Posts: 135	Most prob. the 'high-band' processor refers to more advanced DSP processing technology, especially with higher horizontal resolution captures.

June 16th, 2003, 11:44 PM	#21
Frank Granovski Outer Circle Join Date: May 2002 Location: Hope, BC Posts: 7,524	Don't go by the total CCD pixels, go by the video effective CCD pixels. After all, it's these pixels that capture the video. Regarding CCD size (and pixel size), the larger these are, the less light they'll need. My old DVL9500s have a 1/3" CCD, with big 380K pixels (360K video effective), so I can shoot in lower light where other cams are blind.

June 18th, 2003, 01:48 PM	#25
Frank Granovski Outer Circle Join Date: May 2002 Location: Hope, BC Posts: 7,524	The PAL MX300 and MX350 are compact with 1/4" CCDs, and the total (X 3) video effective pixels are over 1M.