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Panasonic DVX / DVC Assistant
The 4K DVX200 plus previous Panasonic Pro Line cams: DVX100A, DVC60, DVC30.


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Old April 8th, 2002, 02:02 AM   #76
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Charles,

I guess I should have said, "IMHO" at the start of the post.

I totally agree with you. Most of these things are subjective. I guess it's my visual preference to have a shallow depth of field (or more appropriately, more control over it). Simply an artistic taste and I didn't really mean to turn this into yet another debate.

I would add that Citizen Kane's shooting style is - exactly that - a shooting style. Obviously, Orson Wells and Gregg Toland created a visual makeup and style that permeated throughout the film. Something we can all aspire to. It's film story telling at it's best.

Probably the most important thing to keep in mind is to create a visual statement with your film that fits the subject of your film. Lighting, cinematography, editing etc. are all joined to create mood, tone and energy on screen.

I personally don't care what format anyone uses. Just make it work for your project. It's the end product that counts.

Oh, and on a more uninteresting note, the split diopter technique is used to some degree still and it rarely works as well as in Citizen Kane. Perhaps because Citizen Kane was B/W. One film comes to mind, "The Last Castle" with Robert Redford. I suspect they used a diopter to give James Gandolfini and Redford "equal" weight on screen. I think it just stuck out like a sore thumb. Gandolfini (in the background) in focus and Redford (in the foreground) in focus and everything in between out of focus with a subtle line cutting in-between.

In the end I'd like to hear more about everyone's take on what did and didn't work in their favorite films. More of an aesthetic discussion rather than the never ending debate over technology. But I guess I have to go to the TOTEM Poll to get that...

Cheers.
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Old April 8th, 2002, 02:02 AM   #77
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Oh, and great work on Scrubs. I like the show. :)
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Old April 8th, 2002, 09:12 AM   #78
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Justin:

Yeah, that split diopter is a bear. It's always a struggle to get the line of demarcation (love bandying that phrase around at cocktail parties) to disappear into some generic background. The slant focus lenses are a bit easier but limited, and I have had some luck with the swing and tilt lenses but they tend to be so unwieldy unless you have the time to fiddle...

Thanks for digging "Scrubs", it's a lot of fun to work on. Check out John Ritter's guest role on this week's episode, he was a total hoot.
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Old April 8th, 2002, 11:28 AM   #79
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I still not quite sure what the mechanism for packaging 24 fps data into the DV format spec is. How does one edit the 24 fps footage shot with the new Panasonic camera?

Additionally, if the 24P footage is the same resolution as the 30P footage shot with the camera, why would anyone want to shoot 24P, other than for a planned blow-up to film? Why drop data, when saving it incurs no expense?

And that looks like a really chintzy lens assembly on the Panasonic, too. I think the XL1s is still the machine to beat.

Here's to hoping that the Canon XL2 is a prosumer version of Sony's HDW-F900 Cinealta, and that Canopus's next edit board is a prosumer 24P hidef editing suite that fits into a standard Wintel box. Such products would *really* be the democritizing revolutions forecasted by Coppola and others back in the '70s.
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Old April 8th, 2002, 11:32 AM   #80
 
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<<<-- Originally posted by Robert K S : ...Additionally, if the 24P footage is the same resolution as the 30P footage shot with the camera, why would anyone want to shoot 24P, other than for a planned blow-up to film? Why drop data, when saving it incurs no expense? -->>>

Well, there ya go. I have been wondering the same.
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Old April 8th, 2002, 01:18 PM   #81
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"I still not quite sure what the mechanism for packaging 24 fps data into the DV format spec is. How does one edit the 24 fps footage shot with the new Panasonic camera? "

you edit like you would any other video ... you only need special software if you want to remove the 3:2 so it end up at 24fps for a transfer to film

"Additionally, if the 24P footage is the same resolution as the 30P footage shot with the camera, why would anyone want to shoot 24P, other than for a planned blow-up to film?"

you answered your own question ! 24p is for transfer to film AND at that point it can be converted to any other medium - ntsc , pal , HD , dvd etc ...

"Why drop data, when saving it incurs no expense? "

the savings? is the direct transfer to film

"And that looks like a really chintzy lens assembly on the Panasonic, too. I think the XL1s is still the machine to beat. "

so you judge a book by the cover ? i saw the photo and it didn't look chintzy to me ... the GL1 , Xl1 , vx2K, pd150, jvc streamer, panasonic dvc100 are all different - what you like on the XL 1 might NOT be right for me ( i choose the gl - i found the XL draws too much attention to it when shooting in street) .. i buy a camera to suit my needs/project - $$ is 2ndary ... IMO all these under $5K camera's are throw -away - you buy it -shoot your project..and after 1 1/2 -2 years you got your $$ worth , SO on to the NEXT camera ...
there is a camera for ALL budgets ! my budget might call for a pd150 , yours a dsr 500 , others arricam ....

"Here's to hoping that the Canon XL2 is a prosumer version of Sony's HDW-F900 Cinealta, "

dream ON ...


"Such products would *really* be the democritizing revolutions forecasted by Coppola and others back in the '70s."

DV is that revolution ... today anybody can make a MOVIE ! finance it themselves and edit it at home ... you don't need the 900 cinealta to join the revolution !!!!!!!!!
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Old April 8th, 2002, 03:00 PM   #82
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"DV is that revolution ... today anybody can make a MOVIE ! finance it themselves and edit it at home ... you don't need the 900 cinealta to join the revolution!"

DV is great, but we've yet to see a DV-to-film transfer enjoy the same kind of release as 35 mm and 24P productions (excepting, perhaps, the upcoming Full Frontal). Besides, if you want to do a DV-to-film transfer, PAL XL1s have been available for years. Who needs 24P when 25P can be transferred to 24P film with no perceptable difference?

Small chips lack the dynamic range (latitude) and range of depth-of-field that film formats and HD video posess. Folks in Hollywood love to see great films made regardless of format, but it's difficult to get a good film taken seriously by distributors unless it's shot on a high-res medium. (The only DV film I've seen receive any kind of worthwhile release was last year's Center of the World.)

There's really no technical reason why 24P HD chips can't be mass-produced and stuck into modified XL1s, except that no video manufacturer would want to undercut the profits of their lines of professional gear.

With HD NLE for the PC, bandwidth, storage, and compression still pose stifling technical hurdles, but with the clock speeds of motherboards keeping pace with processor speeds, this limitation will cease to exist in a year or two.

At every video show I've gone to, I've called on the Canon and Canopus reps to get in gear and start the big revolution. Prosumer HD. Let's see it.
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Old April 8th, 2002, 03:57 PM   #83
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You're correct when you say that DV films don't enjoy a wide print release into theaters.

I think the great thing about DV and accessible editing gear is that it allows filmmakers of all shapes and sizes exercise their creative muscles. You don't need to rent or buy expensive gear.

With that said, this is like the desktop publishing revolution we experienced with the Macintosh. Soon everyone felt they could design a brochure, books, business materials anything that goes to print. You then saw a lot of badly designed print materials.

Out of any revolution like this you then begin to see many people grow and learn through their experience and dedication.

I'd rather hone my skills with video before I jump into burning money by the foot with 35mm.

Plus, there are a lot of other uses for DV (consumer/prosumer) cameras besides a narrative film. Documentary filmmaking is one of them, artistic, real life, events, or even weddings. More people make a living in these fields then ever before. And in turn more broadcasters are broadcasting this level of filmmaking.
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Old April 9th, 2002, 12:38 AM   #84
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"DV is great, but we've yet to see a DV-to-film transfer enjoy the same kind of release as 35 mm and 24P productions "


the dv films that have had theatrical release IMO would have done NO better in release if they had been shoot on FILM ! so far most have been "art type movie's" or small nitch movie" ...

a studio spends 10-30 million on advertising for a MOVIE that they think they can make $$. a small FILM that a studio doesn't think they can market to a large audience just is NOT going to get the advertising $$ so it will play on 20 screens and something they think they can market to masses will get 2000 screen release ... THIS is a BUSINESS it's NOT art nor is it democracy ..ALSO a studio might put up a 30 -60 million budget for a movie and You better believe they are going to market that MOVIE to get their $$ back!!! if you put up 30-60 million you are NOT going to have it shot on DV !!! you didn't see steven S ask for big $$ for full frontal and it has a 20million star (julia roberts ) that got SAG minimum !

a dv movie by a nobody with nobody actors/actresses made for 10K is going to get a small release !!


"Who needs 24P when 25P can be transferred to 24P film with no perceptable difference? "

the USA needs 24P ... just read these threads over the past year persons have been BEGGING for a 24p mini dv ....

"There's really no technical reason why 24P HD chips can't be mass-produced and stuck into modified XL1s, except that no video manufacturer would want to undercut the profits of their lines of professional gear"


there is much more to it .. CCD's are difficult to make - look at the canon GL and the HOT pixel problem using cheap ccd's!!!
HD chips are VERY expensive .. then you need electronics ..
and EVEN more then that you need a MARKET .. 24p is only used by hollywood and that is a very small market compared to the masses of the world that buy camcorders . the MASSES of the WORLD are PAL & NTSC - that's 25fps and 29.97fps -ALL those TV's in the world will NOT play back 24P ..just like ALL the worlds 35mm projectors run at 24 or 25 and IMO that is why we are STUCK with those 2 speeds !!!! in the end you must convert to what the masses have in their hands and currently that is VHS and a 19" TV ..true DVD is coming on strong ...
HD TV in the US is so slow !!! just not catching on ??
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Old April 9th, 2002, 12:46 AM   #85
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"but it's difficult to get a good film taken seriously by distributors unless it's shot on a high-res medium. (The only DV film I've seen receive any kind of worthwhile release was last year's Center of the World.) "

this is a BIG lie ... most distributors are followers. they are looking for a SAFE product that they know can make $$ ... anytime a distributors tells you there is NO market for a dv/video movie READ between the lines - he's really saying HE can "NOT" make any $$ from your movie! ...

NOTICE if a distributor thinks they can make $$$$$$$$$ from your/a movie. it doesn't matter what it was shot on - they will get it to what ever format they need for it to make them $$$$$ ...it doesn't matter if it is GOOD/BAD - most important "is it marketable" again this is a BUSINESS !! bottom line is $$$
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Old April 9th, 2002, 12:24 PM   #86
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Don't Worry About DVD Camcorder...

People always grouse over when is the industry going to introduce a DVD camcorder. I do not see why.

In order to use DVD you really need a VBR (Variable Bit Rate). The compressionist makes use of this when he is creating the DVD. Higher bit rates are used for faster action and lower rates for less actions.

To my way of thinking that is going to be a little hard to set while shooting. Maybe advanced software will be able to select this automatically one day.

From what limited information I have seen on the new Panasonic offering is the best thing it *MAY* have added is a stock wide lens. If there is something I wish the XL-1 had is the ability to shoot wide screen.

As far as telecining to 35mm goes, big deal. 35mm is going to die. Economics will fuel this faster than anything else...as soon as the technology gets here...and it is not that far away.

When DV makes it to the moviehouse (the next victim), Hollywood will not have to ship movies all they will do send them by satellite. Tremendous cost savings and maximizes profits.

The other thing about the new Panasonic offering is that it seems to support both NTSC and 24P. It will be interesting to see the technology of how they do that.

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Old April 9th, 2002, 01:31 PM   #87
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Re: Don't Worry About DVD Camcorder...

"The other thing about the new Panasonic offering is that it seems to support both NTSC and 24P. It will be interesting to see the technology of how they do that."

That's what I was asking. It may be something as simple as a hardware 3:2 pulldown.
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Old April 9th, 2002, 01:40 PM   #88
 
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Go to the panasonic website and drool over the HD cameras. ONLY $60K!!! Think I'll write a check. Chump change for a movie studio. But, it's coming.
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Old April 9th, 2002, 05:44 PM   #89
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panasonic

was at NAB yesterday checking out the Sony and Panasonic models
of the Hi-Def 24p cameras...Wow, very nice...was able to work with them hands on and they are amazing especially the image quality.
also saw the prototype for the 24p mini DV, they said retail itll be around 3499.00, not bad for what it is..will be available around the end of September, what a wonderful b-day present that would be! better notify my
girlfreind. hehe
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Old April 10th, 2002, 12:22 PM   #90
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My birthday is in september too ;-)

I've been wanting a XL1S since last year - have the money - but no real need for the camcorder right now. Now it looks like I'll be getting the DVX100 instead.

Can't wait for the complete specs. It could be a wet dream for anybody who does VFX with MiniDV - like me.

Just hope that lens has a true manual lens. It looks like it could have - it has manual iris control on the lens barrel - complete with LENS MARKINGS!!! Panasonic should go the whole way and have true manual focus and zoom. I want to rack that focus like crazy!

A true manual lens thatīs nice and wide at 32.5mm, 24p, dual XLR's with controls on the camera body, 3.5 inch LCD, fake 16:9 (native is out of the question), 2 ND filters, no auto shut-off, 16:9 lines in 4:3 like the XL1S - and I'm SOOOOO there!!!!

This camera could be the greatest indie camcorder EVER!

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