24p questions

Joe Kras · September 23rd, 2003, 11:00 AM

OK, this is probably a silly question, but I haven't seen it addressed anywhere.

I know that when shooting PAL cameras in a 60 cycle environment that you have to worry about flickering/strobing, especially with flos.

Does this not apply to shooting 24p?

Is this because you are shooting 24p, and not 48i?

Joe Kras
St. Louis, MO

Jon Fordham · September 25th, 2003, 11:40 AM

If you are having issues with flourescents, simply adjust the shutter speed to 1/60.

The DVX100 defaults to a 1/50 shutter speed when in both 24P and 30P with the shutter setting in the OFF position. Simply switching the shutter ON and setting it to 1/60 should eliminate any problems with 60 cycle Flo's without killing the natural motion blur.

Joe Kras · September 25th, 2003, 04:11 PM

Thanks a lot!

Joe Kras

Steve Febbraro · September 26th, 2003, 07:20 AM

Am considering purchasing the DVX100. Have been reading the messages here, and found them to be of great help.

What does the term, "2-3 pulldown" refer to?

Perhaps asking that question is akin to asking how much a Ferrari costs (if you have to ask you're not ready to buy one).

Thanks.

Jon Fordham · September 26th, 2003, 08:06 AM

2,3 pulldown is in reference to how the progressively shot still frames are recorded to the interlaced video.

In other words, you are shooting 24 still frames per second. But the format you are recording to is recording 60 fields per second. So you need to fill up those 60 fields. In order to fill up those 60 fields with only 24 frames, the frames are "pulled down" into a redundant recording sequence.

Here's how it works:

The first frame 'A' is recorded 2 times corresponding to field 1 and field 2. The second frame 'B' is recorded 3 times corresponding to the next field 1 and field 2 and field 1. The third frame 'C' is recorded 2 times corresponding to field 2 and field 1. The forth frame 'D' is recorded 3 times corresponding to field 2 and field 1 and field 2. 2,3,2,3,2,3, etc, etc.

The only problem with this, is that the 'C' frame gets split between opposing fields. 2 and 1. Since fields 2 and 1 oppose each other, you don't have a complete frame of 'C'. This isn't an issue for standard NTSC editing or viewing. The motion looks the same as any other 24 frame acquired image pulled down for NTSC video screening. However, if you want to edit on a 24 frame timeline or transfer the 24 frame footage to another 24 frame medium, you need to recompress that 'C' frame to get it back. What Panasonic did to deal with this is offer a second 24P mode. The 24P Advanced mode uses a modified pulldown for recording. By doing a 2,3,3,2 cadence, the 'C' frame gets recorded an extra time so that it isn't split between opposing fields. 2,3,3,2 2,3,3,2, etc, etc. This solves the issue of the split 'C' frame but introduces a new and unique motion signature that is different than the normal 2,3,2,3 motion signature.

In order to work with the 2,3,3,2 Advanced pulldown cadence, you'll need a software solution that can remove the advanced pulldown and extract the 24 frames for editing on a 24 frame timeline. Once you finish cutting your masterpiece on a 24 frame timeline, you then can export the 24 frame sequence back to regular NTSC 2,3,2,3 pulldown 60i video, a 24 frame DVD, or an image sequence for HD upconversion or transfer to film.

But regardless of how it works, or which cadence you choose to work with, both get the job done.

Ken Tanaka · September 26th, 2003, 11:06 AM

To supplement Jon's excellent description you may find Adam Wilt's site of benefit to keep your head from spinning. It features an illustrated explanation of the DVX100's various pull-down methods as well as a broader review of the camera's features and characteristics.

Steve Febbraro · September 27th, 2003, 06:26 AM

Jon: Thank you so much for that detailed explanation. It will take me a bit to absorb the information, but I'm sure sooner or later it will click.

Ken: Thank you for the link. That, coupled with Jon's explanation makes things more clear.

David Bass · October 4th, 2003, 01:08 AM

Sorry if im going over old territory but.....
I think I read that you can achieve [better quality] in scene file 6
[thin filmlike 24pa]especially when exporting to dvd.
I shot some sports footage recently in scene file 5, football infact,[thats soccer to those of you on the other side of the pond],Ilaid it out in a premiere 24fps timeline and used my canopus encoder to create an mpeg 2 file and exported that to dvd ....great.
So whats going to happen now if I chase this [better quality]dvd
in scene file 6.Will I need a programe like dv filmaker to pulldown my footage in PAL.[25fps to 24pa]
Just need to know a bit more on pulldown with regards pal as a lot of these posts are concerned with ntsc.
Many thanks in advance.

Rob Lohman · October 6th, 2003, 11:02 AM

There is no pulldown for 25p->24p. Why would you want to?
The only reason to have your footage running at 24p is if you
are going to do an NTSC version. Just let the package interpret
the footage as 24p instead of 25p (DO NOT resample the fps).
You will need to stretch the audio though.

You can't see the difference between 24 or 25 fps. So if you
stay in PAL land, just stick to 25p!

David Bass · October 6th, 2003, 01:21 PM

Thanks Rob
I was begining to wonder after 200 people had viewed my post but none until you, had responded,So to recap I can film in scene file 6 and lay that footage out in premiere.25fps timeline.
Apart from tweaking the audio that should be it.
i'll create a dvd from some more sports footage and let you know
the results.Once again many thanks for your help.

Rob Lohman · October 7th, 2003, 09:41 AM

What is "Scene file 6"? I've never ever heard of that before.

Why would you need to tweak the audio if you stay at 25 fps?

Lets recap:

1. you want a 25p EUROPEAN DVD at PAL resolution: just make a 25 fps PAL project and change nothing

2. you want a 24p AMERICAN DVD at NTSC resolution: start a 24 fps NTSC project and load your 25 fps PAL footage. Change the interpretation framerate from 25 to 24 fps and stretch the audio.

Keep in mind that if you want to make a 24p NTSC DVD you
must create the correct DVD flags which Premiere can't do to
my knowledge (not sure).

But if you just want a 25p PAL DVD stick with method 1 and you
don't need to do anything. Make sure that when you render
your MPEG2 file and author your DVD you indicate that the
stream is progressive (interlacing is none or progressive).

David Bass · October 7th, 2003, 01:15 PM

Sorry Rob If I wasnt Precise with my description.
F6 scene cine
Is position 6 on my dvx100 which is described as follows
on page 33 of the operating instructions from panasonic.
File containing the settings suited to cine-like shooting using the progressive25p mode
{the v detail freq item onthe scene file setting menu screen is set to THIN]
thanks for your replys
Ithink I will Be ok
any other tips on 25p pal then please let me know, I will post you results of dvd soon.
regards dave

Marc Martin · October 7th, 2003, 06:06 PM

Quote:

the v detail freq item onthe scene file setting menu screen is set to THIN

In THIN mode, there is some alliasing on a TV screen, but on a computer screen, there is more vertical resolution.

THICK mode: no alliasing on TV screen, but less resolution on computer screen.

Peter Richardson · October 15th, 2003, 12:52 PM

Hey guys--While shooting my documentary on a couple interviews I accidentally forgot to put the cam in 24P Advanced mode (we're editing on Xpress Pro in 23.98 timeline) and shot in 24P Standard instead. The problem now of course is that we need to get this 24P standard footage into our 23.98 timeline. Can anyone recommed the best way to do this that will match the 24Advanced footage?

Also, in a couple scenarios we shot with a 2nd, 60i cam. We would also like to import this ftg into the project. Is importing into AE and then exporting at 23.98 the best solution? Thanks!

Peter

Mike Zorger · October 22nd, 2003, 05:56 AM

What settings do you guy use to make 24p look great outdoors?

September 23rd, 2003, 11:00 AM	#286
Joe Kras Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: St. Louis, MO Posts: 54	Flourescant flicker when shooting 24p ? OK, this is probably a silly question, but I haven't seen it addressed anywhere. I know that when shooting PAL cameras in a 60 cycle environment that you have to worry about flickering/strobing, especially with flos. Does this not apply to shooting 24p? Is this because you are shooting 24p, and not 48i? Joe Kras St. Louis, MO

September 26th, 2003, 07:20 AM	#289
Steve Febbraro New Boot Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Bethlehem, PA Posts: 20	2-3 pulldown?? Am considering purchasing the DVX100. Have been reading the messages here, and found them to be of great help. What does the term, "2-3 pulldown" refer to? Perhaps asking that question is akin to asking how much a Ferrari costs (if you have to ask you're not ready to buy one). Thanks. __________________ The only thing I do right is make misteaks.

September 26th, 2003, 11:06 AM	#291
Ken Tanaka Retired DV Info Net Almunus Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 6,943	To supplement Jon's excellent description you may find Adam Wilt's site of benefit to keep your head from spinning. It features an illustrated explanation of the DVX100's various pull-down methods as well as a broader review of the camera's features and characteristics. __________________ Lady X Films: A lady with a boring wardrobe...and a global mission. Hey, you don't have enough stuff! Buy with confidence from our sponsors. Hand-picked as the best in the business...Really! See some of my work one frame at a time: www.KenTanaka.com

September 27th, 2003, 06:26 AM	#292
Steve Febbraro New Boot Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Bethlehem, PA Posts: 20	Jon: Thank you so much for that detailed explanation. It will take me a bit to absorb the information, but I'm sure sooner or later it will click. Ken: Thank you for the link. That, coupled with Jon's explanation makes things more clear. __________________ The only thing I do right is make misteaks.

October 4th, 2003, 01:08 AM	#293
David Bass New Boot Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: u.k. Posts: 23	pal 24p issue Sorry if im going over old territory but..... I think I read that you can achieve [better quality] in scene file 6 [thin filmlike 24pa]especially when exporting to dvd. I shot some sports footage recently in scene file 5, football infact,[thats soccer to those of you on the other side of the pond],Ilaid it out in a premiere 24fps timeline and used my canopus encoder to create an mpeg 2 file and exported that to dvd ....great. So whats going to happen now if I chase this [better quality]dvd in scene file 6.Will I need a programe like dv filmaker to pulldown my footage in PAL.[25fps to 24pa] Just need to know a bit more on pulldown with regards pal as a lot of these posts are concerned with ntsc. Many thanks in advance.

September 25th, 2003, 11:40 AM	#287
Jon Fordham Major Player Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: New York, NY Posts: 242	If you are having issues with flourescents, simply adjust the shutter speed to 1/60. The DVX100 defaults to a 1/50 shutter speed when in both 24P and 30P with the shutter setting in the OFF position. Simply switching the shutter ON and setting it to 1/60 should eliminate any problems with 60 cycle Flo's without killing the natural motion blur.

September 25th, 2003, 04:11 PM	#288
Joe Kras Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: St. Louis, MO Posts: 54	Thanks a lot! Joe Kras

September 26th, 2003, 08:06 AM	#290
Jon Fordham Major Player Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: New York, NY Posts: 242	2,3 pulldown is in reference to how the progressively shot still frames are recorded to the interlaced video. In other words, you are shooting 24 still frames per second. But the format you are recording to is recording 60 fields per second. So you need to fill up those 60 fields. In order to fill up those 60 fields with only 24 frames, the frames are "pulled down" into a redundant recording sequence. Here's how it works: The first frame 'A' is recorded 2 times corresponding to field 1 and field 2. The second frame 'B' is recorded 3 times corresponding to the next field 1 and field 2 and field 1. The third frame 'C' is recorded 2 times corresponding to field 2 and field 1. The forth frame 'D' is recorded 3 times corresponding to field 2 and field 1 and field 2. 2,3,2,3,2,3, etc, etc. The only problem with this, is that the 'C' frame gets split between opposing fields. 2 and 1. Since fields 2 and 1 oppose each other, you don't have a complete frame of 'C'. This isn't an issue for standard NTSC editing or viewing. The motion looks the same as any other 24 frame acquired image pulled down for NTSC video screening. However, if you want to edit on a 24 frame timeline or transfer the 24 frame footage to another 24 frame medium, you need to recompress that 'C' frame to get it back. What Panasonic did to deal with this is offer a second 24P mode. The 24P Advanced mode uses a modified pulldown for recording. By doing a 2,3,3,2 cadence, the 'C' frame gets recorded an extra time so that it isn't split between opposing fields. 2,3,3,2 2,3,3,2, etc, etc. This solves the issue of the split 'C' frame but introduces a new and unique motion signature that is different than the normal 2,3,2,3 motion signature. In order to work with the 2,3,3,2 Advanced pulldown cadence, you'll need a software solution that can remove the advanced pulldown and extract the 24 frames for editing on a 24 frame timeline. Once you finish cutting your masterpiece on a 24 frame timeline, you then can export the 24 frame sequence back to regular NTSC 2,3,2,3 pulldown 60i video, a 24 frame DVD, or an image sequence for HD upconversion or transfer to film. But regardless of how it works, or which cadence you choose to work with, both get the job done.

October 6th, 2003, 11:02 AM	#294
Rob Lohman RED Code Chef Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Holland Posts: 12,514	There is no pulldown for 25p->24p. Why would you want to? The only reason to have your footage running at 24p is if you are going to do an NTSC version. Just let the package interpret the footage as 24p instead of 25p (DO NOT resample the fps). You will need to stretch the audio though. You can't see the difference between 24 or 25 fps. So if you stay in PAL land, just stick to 25p! __________________ Rob Lohman, visuar@iname.com DV Info Wrangler & RED Code Chef Join the DV Challenge \| Lady X Search DVinfo.net for quick answers \| Buy from the best: DVinfo.net sponsors

October 6th, 2003, 01:21 PM	#295
David Bass New Boot Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: u.k. Posts: 23	25/24 pal Thanks Rob I was begining to wonder after 200 people had viewed my post but none until you, had responded,So to recap I can film in scene file 6 and lay that footage out in premiere.25fps timeline. Apart from tweaking the audio that should be it. i'll create a dvd from some more sports footage and let you know the results.Once again many thanks for your help.

October 7th, 2003, 09:41 AM	#296
Rob Lohman RED Code Chef Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Holland Posts: 12,514	What is "Scene file 6"? I've never ever heard of that before. Why would you need to tweak the audio if you stay at 25 fps? Lets recap: 1. you want a 25p EUROPEAN DVD at PAL resolution: just make a 25 fps PAL project and change nothing 2. you want a 24p AMERICAN DVD at NTSC resolution: start a 24 fps NTSC project and load your 25 fps PAL footage. Change the interpretation framerate from 25 to 24 fps and stretch the audio. Keep in mind that if you want to make a 24p NTSC DVD you must create the correct DVD flags which Premiere can't do to my knowledge (not sure). But if you just want a 25p PAL DVD stick with method 1 and you don't need to do anything. Make sure that when you render your MPEG2 file and author your DVD you indicate that the stream is progressive (interlacing is none or progressive). __________________ Rob Lohman, visuar@iname.com DV Info Wrangler & RED Code Chef Join the DV Challenge \| Lady X Search DVinfo.net for quick answers \| Buy from the best: DVinfo.net sponsors

October 7th, 2003, 01:15 PM	#297
David Bass New Boot Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: u.k. Posts: 23	f6[scene file 6] Sorry Rob If I wasnt Precise with my description. F6 scene cine Is position 6 on my dvx100 which is described as follows on page 33 of the operating instructions from panasonic. File containing the settings suited to cine-like shooting using the progressive25p mode {the v detail freq item onthe scene file setting menu screen is set to THIN] thanks for your replys Ithink I will Be ok any other tips on 25p pal then please let me know, I will post you results of dvd soon. regards dave

October 15th, 2003, 12:52 PM	#299
Peter Richardson Major Player Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 608	Converting 24P standard to 24 Hey guys--While shooting my documentary on a couple interviews I accidentally forgot to put the cam in 24P Advanced mode (we're editing on Xpress Pro in 23.98 timeline) and shot in 24P Standard instead. The problem now of course is that we need to get this 24P standard footage into our 23.98 timeline. Can anyone recommed the best way to do this that will match the 24Advanced footage? Also, in a couple scenarios we shot with a 2nd, 60i cam. We would also like to import this ftg into the project. Is importing into AE and then exporting at 23.98 the best solution? Thanks! Peter

October 22nd, 2003, 05:56 AM	#300
Mike Zorger Major Player Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Norther VA Posts: 163	Best 24p settings What settings do you guy use to make 24p look great outdoors?