24p questions

Stephen van Vuuren · October 22nd, 2003, 12:49 PM

Search around some older threads - it's been discussed it pretty heavy detail over the last couple of months.

Mike Zorger · October 23rd, 2003, 09:04 AM

So I shouldn't use 24p Advanced unless I'm putting it on film? Also, when i put it in 24p the exposure seems to be a tad darker, i usually raise it back up. Should I not do that, and leave it darker i guess to give it more of a FILM LOOK? or should i make it brighter? Does it make a difference.??

Sean R Allen · October 23rd, 2003, 10:27 AM

24pA isn't only for film. It's the only way to edit 24p without generation loss. It also allows you to put ~20% more onto a DVD when authored correctly.

The 24p modes set auto iris to -2 because of cinegamma. This is because it's a lot easier to get blown highlights in cinegamma mode since there's no roll off. Turn on your zebra stripes to see where highlights are blowing. It has nothing to do with "film look'', but has to do with preserving data at the higher levels. When highlights are blown, there's nothing you can do in post to get that information back, however, it's relatively easy to adjust levels back up in post.

Ted Springer · October 23rd, 2003, 07:53 PM

Give the footage to someone who has a Mac and Cinema Tools. Or I think some program called DVMaker or something like that for Windows will remove the pulldown and give you 24p.

Stephen van Vuuren · October 23rd, 2003, 08:01 PM

For the 60i, use Magic Bullet to get 24fps.

Nick Medrano · October 24th, 2003, 01:50 PM

I heard and have seen that 24pA is actually more a "film look" than the standard 24p. Can anyone else confirm?

Barry Green · October 24th, 2003, 05:23 PM

Definitely not. The look is identical, when edited as 24P. When edited as 60i, the 24PA is actually a little more stuttery, the 24PN is a bit smoother. 24PN motion looks exactly like film that's been transferred to video.

Jay T. Turnure · October 29th, 2003, 09:56 AM

I'm kind of a newbie to this stuff, so I'll try to make it sound some what intelligent.

If you took footage with a 24p camera like the DVX-100 could you edit it in any NLE program and not one of the more expensive programs like Vegas or Avid and still be able to produce an outputted video with a film look?

What would be the noticeable difference in editing 24p footage in a non 24p timeline? Would some frames be missing from the final product?

j

Mike Zorger · October 29th, 2003, 11:28 AM

Ok well i'm pretty new to all of this. But how much does it cost to transfer 24p footage to 35mm, and do they put it back on a mini dv tape for you after they trasfer it?

Don Donatello · October 29th, 2003, 12:12 PM

24p to 35mm $350 - 750 per minute

they should be up rezzing your DV to HD data files

for $ they can make you a mini Dv copy of the transfer

Don Donatello · October 29th, 2003, 12:23 PM

if the final output is video - IMO you will not see any difference if you edit 24fps or 29.97 fps ..
because in the final render the 24fps would have to be converted to 29.97 so the pull down would be restored ..

it's not the editor that gives it the film look .. when you shoot 24p and it's shown on TV ( 29.97) it does have the same "flow " as when film is transfered to tape ( 24fps plus pull down = 29.97)

even 24fps DVD's the pull down is added by the player/digital projector or TV ( SD tv's cannot play 24fps they need 29.97 .. many HD plasma's can play 24fps)

you would have to choose 24p or 24pA as to which pull down you prefer ...

Mike Zorger · October 29th, 2003, 12:36 PM

how does it go from 350-750??? Like I'll do it for 350 but never 750.

Ken Tanaka · October 29th, 2003, 01:03 PM

Mike,
You'll get the best information by directly contacting a film transfer shop. The rates are probably determined in part by the amount of color correction required, the format of the source material, etc.

Jed Williamson · October 29th, 2003, 01:21 PM

Check out www.dvfilm.com

They have a rate calculator for dv to 16 & 35mm transfer.

Example: A 60 min film transfer is $16,200 or $270/min

They also have details on using the dvx100, specifically, in their faq.

Barry Green · October 29th, 2003, 01:31 PM

Depends on the lab.

If you join indieclub.com and become a "sponsor member" ($24/year), one of the benefits is a 10% discount from dvfilm.com. That puts you down around $270/minute.

You really have to shop around to find which labs do work that you like, which ones work with your camera (for example, Swiss Effects doesn't seem to care too much for the DVX100, they prefer the PAL PD150 -- so if you're shooting DVX footage, I wouldn't send it to Swiss Effects). Other labs prefer 24P footage, dvfilm.com can work with direct 24P footage from the DVX.

October 22nd, 2003, 12:49 PM	#301
Stephen van Vuuren Space Hipster Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,508	Search around some older threads - it's been discussed it pretty heavy detail over the last couple of months. __________________ stephen v2 www.insaturnsrings.com

October 23rd, 2003, 09:04 AM	#302
Mike Zorger Major Player Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Norther VA Posts: 163	24p Advanced/24p So I shouldn't use 24p Advanced unless I'm putting it on film? Also, when i put it in 24p the exposure seems to be a tad darker, i usually raise it back up. Should I not do that, and leave it darker i guess to give it more of a FILM LOOK? or should i make it brighter? Does it make a difference.??

October 23rd, 2003, 08:01 PM	#305
Stephen van Vuuren Space Hipster Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,508	For the 60i, use Magic Bullet to get 24fps. __________________ stephen v2 www.insaturnsrings.com

October 29th, 2003, 09:56 AM	#308
Jay T. Turnure New Boot Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Absecon, NJ Posts: 5	Editing with 24p footage I'm kind of a newbie to this stuff, so I'll try to make it sound some what intelligent. If you took footage with a 24p camera like the DVX-100 could you edit it in any NLE program and not one of the more expensive programs like Vegas or Avid and still be able to produce an outputted video with a film look? What would be the noticeable difference in editing 24p footage in a non 24p timeline? Would some frames be missing from the final product? j

October 29th, 2003, 11:28 AM	#309
Mike Zorger Major Player Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Norther VA Posts: 163	DVX 24p footy tranfer to film Ok well i'm pretty new to all of this. But how much does it cost to transfer 24p footage to 35mm, and do they put it back on a mini dv tape for you after they trasfer it?

October 23rd, 2003, 10:27 AM	#303
Sean R Allen Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: RTP, NC Posts: 66	24pA isn't only for film. It's the only way to edit 24p without generation loss. It also allows you to put ~20% more onto a DVD when authored correctly. The 24p modes set auto iris to -2 because of cinegamma. This is because it's a lot easier to get blown highlights in cinegamma mode since there's no roll off. Turn on your zebra stripes to see where highlights are blowing. It has nothing to do with "film look'', but has to do with preserving data at the higher levels. When highlights are blown, there's nothing you can do in post to get that information back, however, it's relatively easy to adjust levels back up in post.

October 23rd, 2003, 07:53 PM	#304
Ted Springer Regular Crew Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Glendale CA Posts: 328	Give the footage to someone who has a Mac and Cinema Tools. Or I think some program called DVMaker or something like that for Windows will remove the pulldown and give you 24p.

October 24th, 2003, 01:50 PM	#306
Nick Medrano Major Player Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: San Antonio, TX Posts: 331	I heard and have seen that 24pA is actually more a "film look" than the standard 24p. Can anyone else confirm?

October 24th, 2003, 05:23 PM	#307
Barry Green Barry Wan Kenobi Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: North Carolina Posts: 3,863	Definitely not. The look is identical, when edited as 24P. When edited as 60i, the 24PA is actually a little more stuttery, the 24PN is a bit smoother. 24PN motion looks exactly like film that's been transferred to video.

October 29th, 2003, 12:12 PM	#310
Don Donatello Hawaiian Shirt Mogul Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: northern cailfornia Posts: 1,261	24p to 35mm $350 - 750 per minute they should be up rezzing your DV to HD data files for $ they can make you a mini Dv copy of the transfer

October 29th, 2003, 12:23 PM	#311
Don Donatello Hawaiian Shirt Mogul Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: northern cailfornia Posts: 1,261	if the final output is video - IMO you will not see any difference if you edit 24fps or 29.97 fps .. because in the final render the 24fps would have to be converted to 29.97 so the pull down would be restored .. it's not the editor that gives it the film look .. when you shoot 24p and it's shown on TV ( 29.97) it does have the same "flow " as when film is transfered to tape ( 24fps plus pull down = 29.97) even 24fps DVD's the pull down is added by the player/digital projector or TV ( SD tv's cannot play 24fps they need 29.97 .. many HD plasma's can play 24fps) you would have to choose 24p or 24pA as to which pull down you prefer ...

October 29th, 2003, 12:36 PM	#312
Mike Zorger Major Player Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Norther VA Posts: 163	how does it go from 350-750??? Like I'll do it for 350 but never 750.

October 29th, 2003, 01:03 PM	#313
Ken Tanaka Retired DV Info Net Almunus Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 6,943	Mike, You'll get the best information by directly contacting a film transfer shop. The rates are probably determined in part by the amount of color correction required, the format of the source material, etc. __________________ Lady X Films: A lady with a boring wardrobe...and a global mission. Hey, you don't have enough stuff! Buy with confidence from our sponsors. Hand-picked as the best in the business...Really! See some of my work one frame at a time: www.KenTanaka.com

October 29th, 2003, 01:21 PM	#314
Jed Williamson Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Madison, WI Posts: 175	Check out www.dvfilm.com They have a rate calculator for dv to 16 & 35mm transfer. Example: A 60 min film transfer is $16,200 or $270/min They also have details on using the dvx100, specifically, in their faq.

October 29th, 2003, 01:31 PM	#315
Barry Green Barry Wan Kenobi Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: North Carolina Posts: 3,863	Depends on the lab. If you join indieclub.com and become a "sponsor member" ($24/year), one of the benefits is a 10% discount from dvfilm.com. That puts you down around $270/minute. You really have to shop around to find which labs do work that you like, which ones work with your camera (for example, Swiss Effects doesn't seem to care too much for the DVX100, they prefer the PAL PD150 -- so if you're shooting DVX footage, I wouldn't send it to Swiss Effects). Other labs prefer 24P footage, dvfilm.com can work with direct 24P footage from the DVX.