24p questions

Barry Green · October 31st, 2003, 09:41 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by Stephen L. Minor :

The film "LOOK" is not determined by the frame rate, infact I contest that any audience is advanced enough to tell the difference between 30, 25, 24 fps. -->>>

Two things: first of all, calling NTSC tv "30fps" is unfortunately confusing terminology -- it's 60 fields per second, not 30 frames per second (as the term "frame" is used when referencing film or progressive scan). Motion is sampled 60 times per second, not 30. So the question is "can the audience tell the difference between 60i and 25 or 24?" And the answer is "oh yeah." They may not know WHY it's different, but they definitely know it's different.

Secondly, I would argue that the frame rate is THE single most important factor in the "film look". Check out the sample DVD from ZGC for the mini35 adapter -- all the clips on there were shot in "frame mode" (pseudo-progressive at 25 fps) or were post-processed in Magic Bullet (or something similar) to emulate 24/25/30fps. Then there's one clip that's shot in 60i. The difference is so jarring, I think you'll see what I mean if you watch it.

Film may be shot with deep focus or shallow focus, it may have harsh contrast or soft contrast, it may have desaturated colors, bleach bypass, or vibrant supersaturated colors, but the one thing that is always constant in every film: it moves at 24 fps.

The mini35 DVD is a good test for this because every clip on there was processed to look as filmish as possible: they used the mini35 adapter for shallow DOF, they lit and shot every clip to be filmlike, and the only real difference is that one clip has 60i motion... it totally screams "video" at you.

Stephen van Vuuren · November 1st, 2003, 12:28 AM

Barry:

Excellent note about the mini35 DVD - I'm glad you pointed that out.

As you know, I've argued for years that if you want film look, you must have 24 fps.

That's why handheld super8 shot with an old kodak fixed focus lens cheapo cam with deep focus still looks as much like film as 65mm anamorphic shot with the shallowest focus possible.

And 60i HD look just like video...

Marcia Janine Galles · November 1st, 2003, 10:01 AM

Has anybody around here actually used DVFilm's 24pA to 35mm services yet? I ask because I'm a little uncomfortable with finishing my project under the gun next fall, and after a year of work, sending it off from CA to Texas. I'd wanted to use Fotokem as they're local (about an hour from me, in Burbank), but though I dropped off a 20 sec "test" for them to play around with my 24pA footage, I haven't been able to get the tech guy to call me back for weeks. He wasn't very enthusiastic about the DVX either, I might add. Was giving me all kinds of negative comments about the camera being a "lie" that it's 24p, that video can't be 24p, etc. so I sent a cheerful note along with the test tape, and included some various specs. Maybe I gave him too much info and ticked him off. Dunno. Fotokem has such a great rep it's left me scratching my head at how I've been treated. Anyhow, now I'm giving DVFilm a second look.

Marcia Janine Galles · November 1st, 2003, 10:30 AM

Note to Stephen Minor:

Since you wanted to hear from people, I'll throw in my two cents as a DVX100 owner.

Personally, it doesn't particularly matter to me to read all the oft cited tech specs for the camera, and all the many impressive sounding reasons why shooting 24pA looks like film vs. video. I just know that when I shoot with a "regular" cam, and compare the footage to what comes out of the DVX the difference in the sheer beauty of what I capture with the DVX is dramatic. And in the end, that visual aesthetic is all I care about for my project. The richness of the colors, the seeming depth of the image... it's absolutely stunning. If I even switch back and forth between the scene files, taking the camera out of 24p, I can tell a dramatic difference immediately in the "look" of what the camera is showing me. It's like the jarring effect of an old ER I once saw (early on, when the show was still worth watching) where someone was running around holding a camcorder, shooting footage of the emergency room, and you saw their "video" POV, then it would switch back to the "normal" POV which was shot on film. There was no mistaking the difference in the look of the footage, whether you work in the industry or not. Anybody could tell the difference, which was precisely why they shot that way, to give that jarring effect. And IMO the same holds true for this little cam. Check out some side by side tests for yourself. If you don't have the resources to rent or buy a camera in the league that George Lucas uses, but you want dramatic footage that screams quality, the DVX fits the bill. It's one amazing little cam.

Don Donatello · November 1st, 2003, 11:34 AM

"how does it go from 350-750??? "

depends on the transfer house and what method they use. just like you can find film to tape transfers from 60 hr -800hr -depends on equipment they use ... how much is X quality worth to you ...

you can still find tape to FILM transfers for $80min - but they just take a 35mm camera and film off a CRT screen ( basically TV monitor) while video is running at 29.97 ...

Marc Young · November 2nd, 2003, 10:54 AM

<<<-- Originally posted by Jay T. Turnure :

What would be the noticeable difference in editing 24p footage in a non 24p timeline? Would some frames be missing from the final product?
-->>>

I thought the issue was also where you made your cuts in a 29.97 FPS editing program. If you chop on a frame boundary that is not a multiple of 5 (or even 10) of the original footage, e.g., on 3, 6, 9, 12, 18, etc., you run the risk of losing film cadence. A de-interlacer (either in your tv if you display interlaced or your dvd player if you use progressive output) will then drop from film to video, momentarily, and the picture could comb.

Aren't transitions also dangerous in non-24p editors? By doing operations in a 29.97 frame per second environment, they have mucked with the telecine ordering Panasonic put into the video.

Jamison Olivieri · November 2nd, 2003, 11:05 AM

I have a question. I just got Vegas 4 and I have a DVX100 and was wondering how you edited in 24p and print to tape in 24p with out any resolution loss. Because I know that you got to the timeline and just right click it and press 24p but its that all you do?

Stephen van Vuuren · November 2nd, 2003, 11:12 AM

Check the Sony Vegas 24p whitepaper at the top of the forum. Detailed information about how to shoot, edit and output 24p.

Stephen van Vuuren · November 2nd, 2003, 11:18 AM

Marc:

Yes, there are issues and I've wondered how different NLE's cope with this.

I shoot 24pa, but I've noticed when I bring some AE effect footage that I've rendered out with pulldown, I have issues from time to time if I trim the AE footage on preview. But when I render the output as plain on 29.97, it seems Vegas recalculates and corrects the issue.

Peter Sieben · November 5th, 2003, 01:16 PM

Hey guys,

I've started my first project with my new DVX100 PAL camcorder this week, after receiving the beauty last Friday. The project is about the integration of people with a small handicap as volunteers in a working environment.
Using the camcorder in it's default scenefile 6 (25P cinema) without digging too deep inside the manual configurations-depths of the DVX100, I am very glad with the visual results.

As this forum mostly focusses on the NTSC version, I would like to share some PAL footage in 25P mode I shot today. Nothing special in composition and editing, but just to show you some 25P PAL footage.

Watch it at http://www.integrim.nl/lx/25ptest.wmv (4 MB)

Peter Sieben

Ong Wan Shu · November 6th, 2003, 09:08 PM

hi all,

I have read the editing FAQ from the DVX100 resource website and got some points I need to clarify with people who aredy using the camera here.

1) 24p "Standard":NOTE: This mode is not recommended if you wish to edit or output in 24p (though it is still possible to do so with some image degradation).

For those of you here who had shot in 24p "standard" and achieved the "filmic" look,did you edit/output in 24p? Or you edited normally and the end product aredy looks like film? Sorry I am really new to NLE.

2) 24p "Advanced": NOTE: This mode is not recommended if you do not intend to edit in native 24p.

Does this mean if I dun have the resources to edit in native 24p DIGITALLY, shooting in this mode is definitely out for me?

3) I heard that shooting in 30p/secs also gives a film look. If so, why shoot in 24p/sec? After all, TV is showed in 29.97/sec?

Thanks and sorry if the questions sounds newbie.

Cheers

Stephen van Vuuren · November 6th, 2003, 10:39 PM

Read the Sony (Sonic Foundry) Vegas 24p whitepaper at the top of this forum:

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthrea...threadid=10295

Quick answers to your questions:

1. 24p standard can be edited at 29.97 or 23.98 - tell us what NLE you will be using and we can help you better.

2. 24p Advanced is for those who plan on editing and outputing at 24p (film, progressive DVD, some digital projection).

3. 30p and 24p look quite different - it's a matter of preference. 24 fps looks more filmic and uses standard film shutter speeds.

Ong Wan Shu · November 7th, 2003, 02:40 AM

I should be editing with Premiere 6.0.

As i do not know much about the technology of frames,screen,interlaced etc, the fact that shooting at 24 standard while having 2 frames being non-full frame(if i understood it correctly) makes me worry that I might not be bringing the best out of a good camera.

Thanks in advance

Stephen van Vuuren · November 7th, 2003, 09:39 AM

Shoot 24 standard with Premiere 6. If you are planning to go film out or must have 24p, you will need DV Filmmaker (search here for several threads about it) to extract24p from standard since Premiere 6 & Pro do not support 24p advanced.

Ong Wan Shu · November 7th, 2003, 11:29 PM

Is DV filmmaker available to PC or is it only for mac?

Also,if i shoot at 24p standard,and i edit it normally(not editing in 24p), will the product aredly look like film?

Thanks!!

November 1st, 2003, 12:28 AM	#332
Stephen van Vuuren Space Hipster Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,508	Barry: Excellent note about the mini35 DVD - I'm glad you pointed that out. As you know, I've argued for years that if you want film look, you must have 24 fps. That's why handheld super8 shot with an old kodak fixed focus lens cheapo cam with deep focus still looks as much like film as 65mm anamorphic shot with the shallowest focus possible. And 60i HD look just like video... __________________ stephen v2 www.insaturnsrings.com

November 2nd, 2003, 10:54 AM	#336
Marc Young Regular Crew Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Honolulu, HI Posts: 112	Re: Editing with 24p footage <<<-- Originally posted by Jay T. Turnure : What would be the noticeable difference in editing 24p footage in a non 24p timeline? Would some frames be missing from the final product? -->>> I thought the issue was also where you made your cuts in a 29.97 FPS editing program. If you chop on a frame boundary that is not a multiple of 5 (or even 10) of the original footage, e.g., on 3, 6, 9, 12, 18, etc., you run the risk of losing film cadence. A de-interlacer (either in your tv if you display interlaced or your dvd player if you use progressive output) will then drop from film to video, momentarily, and the picture could comb. Aren't transitions also dangerous in non-24p editors? By doing operations in a 29.97 frame per second environment, they have mucked with the telecine ordering Panasonic put into the video.

November 2nd, 2003, 11:05 AM	#337
Jamison Olivieri Regular Crew Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: CA Posts: 50	24p questions I have a question. I just got Vegas 4 and I have a DVX100 and was wondering how you edited in 24p and print to tape in 24p with out any resolution loss. Because I know that you got to the timeline and just right click it and press 24p but its that all you do?

November 2nd, 2003, 11:12 AM	#338
Stephen van Vuuren Space Hipster Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,508	Check the Sony Vegas 24p whitepaper at the top of the forum. Detailed information about how to shoot, edit and output 24p. __________________ stephen v2 www.insaturnsrings.com

November 2nd, 2003, 11:18 AM	#339
Stephen van Vuuren Space Hipster Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,508	Marc: Yes, there are issues and I've wondered how different NLE's cope with this. I shoot 24pa, but I've noticed when I bring some AE effect footage that I've rendered out with pulldown, I have issues from time to time if I trim the AE footage on preview. But when I render the output as plain on 29.97, it seems Vegas recalculates and corrects the issue. __________________ stephen v2 www.insaturnsrings.com

October 31st, 2003, 09:41 PM	#331
Barry Green Barry Wan Kenobi Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: North Carolina Posts: 3,863	<<<-- Originally posted by Stephen L. Minor : The film "LOOK" is not determined by the frame rate, infact I contest that any audience is advanced enough to tell the difference between 30, 25, 24 fps. -->>> Two things: first of all, calling NTSC tv "30fps" is unfortunately confusing terminology -- it's 60 fields per second, not 30 frames per second (as the term "frame" is used when referencing film or progressive scan). Motion is sampled 60 times per second, not 30. So the question is "can the audience tell the difference between 60i and 25 or 24?" And the answer is "oh yeah." They may not know WHY it's different, but they definitely know it's different. Secondly, I would argue that the frame rate is THE single most important factor in the "film look". Check out the sample DVD from ZGC for the mini35 adapter -- all the clips on there were shot in "frame mode" (pseudo-progressive at 25 fps) or were post-processed in Magic Bullet (or something similar) to emulate 24/25/30fps. Then there's one clip that's shot in 60i. The difference is so jarring, I think you'll see what I mean if you watch it. Film may be shot with deep focus or shallow focus, it may have harsh contrast or soft contrast, it may have desaturated colors, bleach bypass, or vibrant supersaturated colors, but the one thing that is always constant in every film: it moves at 24 fps. The mini35 DVD is a good test for this because every clip on there was processed to look as filmish as possible: they used the mini35 adapter for shallow DOF, they lit and shot every clip to be filmlike, and the only real difference is that one clip has 60i motion... it totally screams "video" at you.

November 1st, 2003, 10:01 AM	#333
Marcia Janine Galles Major Player Join Date: May 2003 Location: Camarillo, CA Posts: 340	Has anybody around here actually used DVFilm's 24pA to 35mm services yet? I ask because I'm a little uncomfortable with finishing my project under the gun next fall, and after a year of work, sending it off from CA to Texas. I'd wanted to use Fotokem as they're local (about an hour from me, in Burbank), but though I dropped off a 20 sec "test" for them to play around with my 24pA footage, I haven't been able to get the tech guy to call me back for weeks. He wasn't very enthusiastic about the DVX either, I might add. Was giving me all kinds of negative comments about the camera being a "lie" that it's 24p, that video can't be 24p, etc. so I sent a cheerful note along with the test tape, and included some various specs. Maybe I gave him too much info and ticked him off. Dunno. Fotokem has such a great rep it's left me scratching my head at how I've been treated. Anyhow, now I'm giving DVFilm a second look.

November 1st, 2003, 10:30 AM	#334
Marcia Janine Galles Major Player Join Date: May 2003 Location: Camarillo, CA Posts: 340	Note to Stephen Minor: Since you wanted to hear from people, I'll throw in my two cents as a DVX100 owner. Personally, it doesn't particularly matter to me to read all the oft cited tech specs for the camera, and all the many impressive sounding reasons why shooting 24pA looks like film vs. video. I just know that when I shoot with a "regular" cam, and compare the footage to what comes out of the DVX the difference in the sheer beauty of what I capture with the DVX is dramatic. And in the end, that visual aesthetic is all I care about for my project. The richness of the colors, the seeming depth of the image... it's absolutely stunning. If I even switch back and forth between the scene files, taking the camera out of 24p, I can tell a dramatic difference immediately in the "look" of what the camera is showing me. It's like the jarring effect of an old ER I once saw (early on, when the show was still worth watching) where someone was running around holding a camcorder, shooting footage of the emergency room, and you saw their "video" POV, then it would switch back to the "normal" POV which was shot on film. There was no mistaking the difference in the look of the footage, whether you work in the industry or not. Anybody could tell the difference, which was precisely why they shot that way, to give that jarring effect. And IMO the same holds true for this little cam. Check out some side by side tests for yourself. If you don't have the resources to rent or buy a camera in the league that George Lucas uses, but you want dramatic footage that screams quality, the DVX fits the bill. It's one amazing little cam.

November 1st, 2003, 11:34 AM	#335
Don Donatello Hawaiian Shirt Mogul Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: northern cailfornia Posts: 1,261	"how does it go from 350-750??? " depends on the transfer house and what method they use. just like you can find film to tape transfers from 60 hr -800hr -depends on equipment they use ... how much is X quality worth to you ... you can still find tape to FILM transfers for $80min - but they just take a 35mm camera and film off a CRT screen ( basically TV monitor) while video is running at 29.97 ...

November 5th, 2003, 01:16 PM	#340
Peter Sieben Major Player Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 345	24P NTSC? 25P PAL footage. Hey guys, I've started my first project with my new DVX100 PAL camcorder this week, after receiving the beauty last Friday. The project is about the integration of people with a small handicap as volunteers in a working environment. Using the camcorder in it's default scenefile 6 (25P cinema) without digging too deep inside the manual configurations-depths of the DVX100, I am very glad with the visual results. As this forum mostly focusses on the NTSC version, I would like to share some PAL footage in 25P mode I shot today. Nothing special in composition and editing, but just to show you some 25P PAL footage. Watch it at http://www.integrim.nl/lx/25ptest.wmv (4 MB) Peter Sieben __________________ Peter / Orphic Film www.orphicfilm.nl and www.myspace.com/orphicfilm

November 6th, 2003, 09:08 PM	#341
Ong Wan Shu Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 74	24p Standard or 24p Advanced hi all, I have read the editing FAQ from the DVX100 resource website and got some points I need to clarify with people who aredy using the camera here. 1) 24p "Standard":NOTE: This mode is not recommended if you wish to edit or output in 24p (though it is still possible to do so with some image degradation). For those of you here who had shot in 24p "standard" and achieved the "filmic" look,did you edit/output in 24p? Or you edited normally and the end product aredy looks like film? Sorry I am really new to NLE. 2) 24p "Advanced": NOTE: This mode is not recommended if you do not intend to edit in native 24p. Does this mean if I dun have the resources to edit in native 24p DIGITALLY, shooting in this mode is definitely out for me? 3) I heard that shooting in 30p/secs also gives a film look. If so, why shoot in 24p/sec? After all, TV is showed in 29.97/sec? Thanks and sorry if the questions sounds newbie. Cheers

November 6th, 2003, 10:39 PM	#342
Stephen van Vuuren Space Hipster Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,508	Read the Sony (Sonic Foundry) Vegas 24p whitepaper at the top of this forum: http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthrea...threadid=10295 Quick answers to your questions: 1. 24p standard can be edited at 29.97 or 23.98 - tell us what NLE you will be using and we can help you better. 2. 24p Advanced is for those who plan on editing and outputing at 24p (film, progressive DVD, some digital projection). 3. 30p and 24p look quite different - it's a matter of preference. 24 fps looks more filmic and uses standard film shutter speeds. __________________ stephen v2 www.insaturnsrings.com

November 7th, 2003, 02:40 AM	#343
Ong Wan Shu Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 74	I should be editing with Premiere 6.0. As i do not know much about the technology of frames,screen,interlaced etc, the fact that shooting at 24 standard while having 2 frames being non-full frame(if i understood it correctly) makes me worry that I might not be bringing the best out of a good camera. Thanks in advance

November 7th, 2003, 09:39 AM	#344
Stephen van Vuuren Space Hipster Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,508	Shoot 24 standard with Premiere 6. If you are planning to go film out or must have 24p, you will need DV Filmmaker (search here for several threads about it) to extract24p from standard since Premiere 6 & Pro do not support 24p advanced. __________________ stephen v2 www.insaturnsrings.com

November 7th, 2003, 11:29 PM	#345
Ong Wan Shu Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 74	Is DV filmmaker available to PC or is it only for mac? Also,if i shoot at 24p standard,and i edit it normally(not editing in 24p), will the product aredly look like film? Thanks!!