24p questions

Bob Zimmerman · November 4th, 2004, 09:40 AM

This was taken from the Panasonic DVX100a info:

24p Advance Mode - For 24p Non-Linear Editing
In 24p mode, images from the CCD can be 2:3 pulldown-converted(24p Mode) or 2:3:3:2 pulldown-converted (24p Advance Mode) and recorded onto tape in the standard 60i TV format. The tape can then be played back or edited using an ordinary DV system. True 24p editing can be achieved by uploading 2:3:3:2 pulldown-converted images via an IEEE1394

So if I recorded in 24p can I put download to my Mac and edit using Final Cut Express or FCX2?

Barry Green · November 5th, 2004, 01:01 PM

Yes you could edit the footage, just like you could edit film footage that had been transferred to video.

What you couldn't do is a raw 24P edit, because FCX doesn't support 24P editing. But you could edit the footage as 60i just fine.

Arne Johnson · January 13th, 2005, 01:16 AM

We recently shot some footage in 24p accidentally, though the final project is being shot in 30p. We're using Final Cut. Any idea on the best way to convert this footage over to 30p so we can edit in the same timeline?

Thanks,

AJ

Jesse Bekas · January 14th, 2005, 02:09 PM

You'd probably have to telecine the 24p into 60i and then deinterlace that into 30p (?).

Barry Green · January 14th, 2005, 04:16 PM

I'm no expert on FCP, but you could probably edit it on the same timeline if you just captured the footage from tape as 29.97 and don't remove any pulldown.

Paul Fontaine · July 8th, 2005, 10:55 AM

Does anybody know if it's possible to get the 24p sequence out of an editing system onto 24p HD tape? Could you export OMFs or Quicktimes?

It seems even the DVX200 is designed for 1080/60i.

It would be nice to have a 24p master for a film output option.

Anybody experienced in film outs from the DVX?

Barry Green · July 8th, 2005, 11:27 AM

The DVX can do a pretty good blowup from 480/24 up to 720/24. I've done sample blowups using PhotoZoom Pro software and was quite impressed with the results.

Pushing it to 1080/24 was not satisfactory, but up to 720 looked pretty good.

I've blown DVX footage up to 35mm film. The footage is on DVFilm.com's demo reel, which you can request from them for screening in your own town's theater. Overall, the results were decent to excellent, depending on where you were sitting in the theater. If you were up close to the front, the results were pretty good, but not outstanding... definitely way, WAY better than "28 Days Later" or "Open Water", but not gonna fool anyone into thinking you'd shot on 35! But sitting in the back of the theater, the image looked fantastic. Easily could pass for Super16.

Paul Fontaine · July 8th, 2005, 11:33 AM

Thanks for the reply! Very helpful info. I'll check out the DVFilm website.

John Trent · July 17th, 2005, 11:26 AM

I've got to respectfully disagree with you, Barry. I've seen "28 Days Later" many times, including at the theater. I just watched it last night on HBO. I think it's the best looking mini DV movie I've ever seen. Yeah, it has a edge enhancement look about it but it looks surprising better the DVX shot, "Murderball", which IMHO looks like hell.

Peace.

Ash Greyson · July 17th, 2005, 09:07 PM

Uhh... yeah... 28 Days Later and Open Water are not even close. The muted colors on 28 Days Later were intentional and the print I saw looked better than any DVX blow up I have seen...

ash =o)

Barry Green · July 17th, 2005, 10:12 PM

I don't know what to tell you -- I saw 28 Days Later in the theater and thought it looked awful awful awful. I'm sure on DVD it looks fantastic, but on the big screen it was horribly soft and grainy and edge-enhanced.

I thought it was completely unacceptable, and really distracted from the experience. Granted they wanted a certain look, but it was rough to watch.

It also depends on where you sit in the theater -- if you were towards the back, everything looks much better than if you're closer to the front...

Ash Greyson · July 18th, 2005, 12:14 PM

Hrrmmm... there were 2 master prints made of that... maybe 3... I saw the later one with the different ending and it looked terrific. Most people I saw it with thought it was shot on 16mm with some DV mixed in. Open Water was CLEARLY DV the entire time... The best SD bumps I have seen have come from the XL2... 24P DVX stuff can look quite good. Going to film is a whole other animal and requires preparation and execution every step of the way...

ash =o)

David Jimerson · July 18th, 2005, 05:43 PM

Didn't you get a little stair-stepping on diagonals when you used PhotoZoom Pro, Barry? I seem to recall it was mild and the picture otherwise looked great -- better then the HD10, in fact.

Mike Kaminski · August 5th, 2005, 09:10 AM

Okay, i have a small problem.

I have been shooting a series with the dv100, and normally i use the regular 24p shooting mode--however, in one instance, someone else decided to shoot in the 24p Advanced mode. This wouldnt be so bad if i knew which footage had been shot in that mode! 90% of the material is shot using the standard 24p mode but there is some footage that needs to be digitized that is 24pA and i have no idea which footage it is.

So my question then is: is there anyway of knowing when you have to digitize whether footage is 24p or 24pA? Is there any kind of in-camera display that will let you know? Is there any way of checking to see if the framerate is 24fps?

The footage i think is being digitized into adobe premier; i know FCP has some kind of built in detection plug-in but i dont think Premier does.

and then once i know which has been shot using 24p and 24pA, how is it possible to mix the footage? Would the 24pA footage have to be converted to 29.97?

Barry Green · August 5th, 2005, 01:49 PM

I don't know how FCP or Premiere handle the pulldown. In Sony Vegas software it's completely transparent -- it doesn't matter whether you shot 24p or 24pa, the software removes the pulldown on the fly and you can freely mix & match both modes; it makes no difference. I believe FCP makes you pre-process the file to remove pulldown. Don't know how Premiere does it.

As for determining which is which; there are two ways. One, if you have the camera original tapes, you can tell when playing it back -- toggle the COUNTER button a few times and you'll see it changes from timecode to a counter to a frame rate display -- it'll print "24P" or "24PA" on the screen.

If you've already digitized the footage, the way to tell is to single-step through five frames. If you see three sharp progressive frames followed by two interlaced frames, then it's 24P mode. If you see four sharp progressive frames followed by one interlaced frame, then it's 24PA.

January 13th, 2005, 01:16 AM	#498
Arne Johnson Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: United States Posts: 88	24p to 30p? We recently shot some footage in 24p accidentally, though the final project is being shot in 30p. We're using Final Cut. Any idea on the best way to convert this footage over to 30p so we can edit in the same timeline? Thanks, AJ

July 8th, 2005, 10:55 AM	#501
Paul Fontaine New Boot Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Los Angleles, CA Posts: 5	"Bumping Up" DVX100A 24p to 24p HD??? Does anybody know if it's possible to get the 24p sequence out of an editing system onto 24p HD tape? Could you export OMFs or Quicktimes? It seems even the DVX200 is designed for 1080/60i. It would be nice to have a 24p master for a film output option. Anybody experienced in film outs from the DVX?

July 18th, 2005, 05:43 PM	#508
David Jimerson Jubal 28 Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Wilmington, NC Posts: 872	Didn't you get a little stair-stepping on diagonals when you used PhotoZoom Pro, Barry? I seem to recall it was mild and the picture otherwise looked great -- better then the HD10, in fact. __________________ www.wrightsvillebeachstudios.com

August 5th, 2005, 09:10 AM	#509
Mike Kaminski Tourist Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 1	how to mix and detect 24p and 24p Advanced footage in post? Okay, i have a small problem. I have been shooting a series with the dv100, and normally i use the regular 24p shooting mode--however, in one instance, someone else decided to shoot in the 24p Advanced mode. This wouldnt be so bad if i knew which footage had been shot in that mode! 90% of the material is shot using the standard 24p mode but there is some footage that needs to be digitized that is 24pA and i have no idea which footage it is. So my question then is: is there anyway of knowing when you have to digitize whether footage is 24p or 24pA? Is there any kind of in-camera display that will let you know? Is there any way of checking to see if the framerate is 24fps? The footage i think is being digitized into adobe premier; i know FCP has some kind of built in detection plug-in but i dont think Premier does. and then once i know which has been shot using 24p and 24pA, how is it possible to mix the footage? Would the 24pA footage have to be converted to 29.97?

November 4th, 2004, 09:40 AM	#496
Bob Zimmerman Major Player Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Illinois Posts: 888	This was taken from the Panasonic DVX100a info: 24p Advance Mode - For 24p Non-Linear Editing In 24p mode, images from the CCD can be 2:3 pulldown-converted(24p Mode) or 2:3:3:2 pulldown-converted (24p Advance Mode) and recorded onto tape in the standard 60i TV format. The tape can then be played back or edited using an ordinary DV system. True 24p editing can be achieved by uploading 2:3:3:2 pulldown-converted images via an IEEE1394 So if I recorded in 24p can I put download to my Mac and edit using Final Cut Express or FCX2?

November 5th, 2004, 01:01 PM	#497
Barry Green Barry Wan Kenobi Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: North Carolina Posts: 3,863	Yes you could edit the footage, just like you could edit film footage that had been transferred to video. What you couldn't do is a raw 24P edit, because FCX doesn't support 24P editing. But you could edit the footage as 60i just fine.

January 14th, 2005, 02:09 PM	#499
Jesse Bekas Major Player Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Ridgefield Park, New Jersey, USA Posts: 572	You'd probably have to telecine the 24p into 60i and then deinterlace that into 30p (?).

January 14th, 2005, 04:16 PM	#500
Barry Green Barry Wan Kenobi Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: North Carolina Posts: 3,863	I'm no expert on FCP, but you could probably edit it on the same timeline if you just captured the footage from tape as 29.97 and don't remove any pulldown.

July 8th, 2005, 11:27 AM	#502
Barry Green Barry Wan Kenobi Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: North Carolina Posts: 3,863	The DVX can do a pretty good blowup from 480/24 up to 720/24. I've done sample blowups using PhotoZoom Pro software and was quite impressed with the results. Pushing it to 1080/24 was not satisfactory, but up to 720 looked pretty good. I've blown DVX footage up to 35mm film. The footage is on DVFilm.com's demo reel, which you can request from them for screening in your own town's theater. Overall, the results were decent to excellent, depending on where you were sitting in the theater. If you were up close to the front, the results were pretty good, but not outstanding... definitely way, WAY better than "28 Days Later" or "Open Water", but not gonna fool anyone into thinking you'd shot on 35! But sitting in the back of the theater, the image looked fantastic. Easily could pass for Super16.

July 8th, 2005, 11:33 AM	#503
Paul Fontaine New Boot Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Los Angleles, CA Posts: 5	Thanks for the reply! Very helpful info. I'll check out the DVFilm website.

July 17th, 2005, 11:26 AM	#504
John Trent Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Merrillville, IN Posts: 54	I've got to respectfully disagree with you, Barry. I've seen "28 Days Later" many times, including at the theater. I just watched it last night on HBO. I think it's the best looking mini DV movie I've ever seen. Yeah, it has a edge enhancement look about it but it looks surprising better the DVX shot, "Murderball", which IMHO looks like hell. Peace.

July 17th, 2005, 09:07 PM	#505
Ash Greyson Trustee Join Date: May 2003 Location: Tulsa, OK Posts: 1,689	Uhh... yeah... 28 Days Later and Open Water are not even close. The muted colors on 28 Days Later were intentional and the print I saw looked better than any DVX blow up I have seen... ash =o)

July 17th, 2005, 10:12 PM	#506
Barry Green Barry Wan Kenobi Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: North Carolina Posts: 3,863	I don't know what to tell you -- I saw 28 Days Later in the theater and thought it looked awful awful awful. I'm sure on DVD it looks fantastic, but on the big screen it was horribly soft and grainy and edge-enhanced. I thought it was completely unacceptable, and really distracted from the experience. Granted they wanted a certain look, but it was rough to watch. It also depends on where you sit in the theater -- if you were towards the back, everything looks much better than if you're closer to the front...

July 18th, 2005, 12:14 PM	#507
Ash Greyson Trustee Join Date: May 2003 Location: Tulsa, OK Posts: 1,689	Hrrmmm... there were 2 master prints made of that... maybe 3... I saw the later one with the different ending and it looked terrific. Most people I saw it with thought it was shot on 16mm with some DV mixed in. Open Water was CLEARLY DV the entire time... The best SD bumps I have seen have come from the XL2... 24P DVX stuff can look quite good. Going to film is a whole other animal and requires preparation and execution every step of the way... ash =o)

August 5th, 2005, 01:49 PM	#510
Barry Green Barry Wan Kenobi Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: North Carolina Posts: 3,863	I don't know how FCP or Premiere handle the pulldown. In Sony Vegas software it's completely transparent -- it doesn't matter whether you shot 24p or 24pa, the software removes the pulldown on the fly and you can freely mix & match both modes; it makes no difference. I believe FCP makes you pre-process the file to remove pulldown. Don't know how Premiere does it. As for determining which is which; there are two ways. One, if you have the camera original tapes, you can tell when playing it back -- toggle the COUNTER button a few times and you'll see it changes from timecode to a counter to a frame rate display -- it'll print "24P" or "24PA" on the screen. If you've already digitized the footage, the way to tell is to single-step through five frames. If you see three sharp progressive frames followed by two interlaced frames, then it's 24P mode. If you see four sharp progressive frames followed by one interlaced frame, then it's 24PA.