24p questions

Jeff Donald · October 13th, 2002, 11:42 AM

I think it depends on your time frame for wanting (needing?) a camera and waiting to see what Canon and the rest of the players do in regards to the DVX100. In the short term this camera is affecting the pricing of the XL1 and others. In the long term all the manufactures are working on something similar to this. At this point Panasonic has set the bar, the rest will try to exceed it.

If you have an investment in Canon equipment and lenses it might benefit you to wait. I suspect Canon will have something on the market within a year or so to directly compete with the DVX100. They don't want to lose the market share and lead they have in this segment. If you can't wait, the Panasonic has features and benefits that no other camera at this price point have. Will this camera make or break your next project for a festival? I hope not.

An alternative strategy would be to invest in a high end film effect plug-in like Magic Bullet ($1,000). Start saving for the Canon's equivalent or Sony's etc.

Jeff

Ryan Wachter · October 13th, 2002, 12:07 PM

well my goal as of right now is, that I have been saving and plan to purchase a minidv camera and editing equipment close to summer. This summer I want to start on my first serious short project.

Jeff Donald · October 13th, 2002, 12:27 PM

Summer for me is 9 months away. That would give you time to buy your editing equipment and get up to speed on it. Most people find the learning curve is much steeper on NLE software than a camera. Take a wait and see attitude toward the cameras. This will do two things for you. As competitors to the DVX100 come out they will have newer and different (advanced?) features from which to choose. The price of the DVX100 will fall as competitors come to market. By waiting until you are closer to starting production you'll save some money. Money that can buy a better mic, more Ram, another hard drive etc.

Cameras are all glamor and sexy. We like the buttons and menus and cool stuff. But they really are just a tool. Don't be fooled by all the hype surrounding a new product. If you have any experience shooting you won't need the camera until a few months before production so that you can get familiar with the features. Once you get your NLE up and running, rent a DVX100 for a weekend and try it out. It may or may not be the camera you think it is.

jeff

Ryan Wachter · October 13th, 2002, 01:29 PM

ok, great. So what you are suggesting is to get the editing equipment now and start getting use to that asap. Then wait until summers about here to decide on a camera, after Ive tested a few out and let the prices drop? Sounds like a good idea to me.

Jeff Donald · October 13th, 2002, 01:39 PM

If I were shopping for a whole set-up that's what I would do. the editing equipment and software will not change a great deal in nine months. I edit all my projects on a two year old Mac G4. Plenty of horsepower for what I do. Editing shorts in not all that demanding on a system in most cases.

jeff

Ryan Wachter · October 13th, 2002, 02:05 PM

Yes I just posted in the MAC forum about it. I too am looking into a G4 set up.

Skip Hunt · October 13th, 2002, 09:26 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by Stephen van Vuuren : Without question for me. I'm working on my second short for festival circuit.

I sold my XL1 with 3X wide and 14X manual lens to get two of these.

The image is so much better than XL1 frame mode or XL1 deinterlaced in post. And wide and tele adaptors will arrive soon enough and won't affect the image near as much as the low res XL1 image does. -->>>

With all due respest and gratitude for your posting sample clips and sharing your impressions.... aren't you at least a little concerned about this purple fringing, etc.? I know it's been argued that it can be found on some Canon's and Sony's, but what I've seen from this DVX100 is quite obviously a flaw. I agree the camera looks quite promising, but I'm a little surprised no one has stepped up to explain this flaw. Have you contacted your dealer or Panasonic yet to inquire about it? If so, what did they say? If I'd recieved one of these first cams and found such blatant fringing and abberation, I'd certainly be demanding explanation, a refund, or a date that my cross-shipped flaw-free unit would be arriving. Thoughts?

skip hunt

Stephen van Vuuren · October 13th, 2002, 10:04 PM

It's not a flaw in my view. I'm kind of puzzled as to the large reaction since I've seen fringes on screen grabs (black, yellow, though pink is a first) since I started messing with DV.

Plus, my guess is that some of occasional artifacts may occur with the increased data recorded by the camera head, then forced into DV compression. I would expect the images to have occasional artifacts, depeding on settings, lighting and the like. This crops up, even on HD.

It's a fact of life with video cams. Check some recent post on 2-pop from posters who've done film out for a living.

On my XL1, a black bar was added by the cam to cover the fringe. And it was much larger than this area. On this cam, no black bar so we see pink.

It's not visible on any NTSC monitor, nor on web output, nor on film out. What exactly are you concerned about? You are wanting me to call me dealer about a flaw in the non visible area of the image?

I would be concerned if it showed up when I was actually watching or projecting my image, but I love the images this camera records.

Let me say that again. I love the images this camera records. Film cameras and film stock are not perfect either. Gate weave, shutter problems, lab issues, subtle scratches etc.

In my XL1, I had to suffer the softness of frame mode, especially on wide shots. Plus the lower rez of Canon. Or if deinterlaced in post, I got problematic jaggies and motion artificacts caused by lack of motion blur.

That affected the entire visible image. It was a limitation.
I'm sorry, but I don't understand you terming this a "flaw". Screen grabs are actually a fairly mediocre way to judge a cam.

Motion picture images are, well in motion. It's the 24P and 1/24 and 1/48th that excites me.

Skip Hunt · October 14th, 2002, 06:36 AM

<<<-- Originally posted by Stephen van Vuuren : It's not a flaw in my view. I'm kind of puzzled as to the large reaction since I've seen fringes on screen grabs (black, yellow, though pink is a first) since I started messing with DV.

Plus, my guess is that some of occasional artifacts may occur with the increased data recorded by the camera head, then forced into DV compression. I would expect the images to have occasional artifacts, depeding on settings, lighting and the like. This crops up, even on HD.

It's a fact of life with video cams. Check some recent post on 2-pop from posters who've done film out for a living.

On my XL1, a black bar was added by the cam to cover the fringe. And it was much larger than this area. On this cam, no black bar so we see pink.

It's not visible on any NTSC monitor, nor on web output, nor on film out. What exactly are you concerned about? You are wanting me to call me dealer about a flaw in the non visible area of the image?

I would be concerned if it showed up when I was actually watching or projecting my image, but I love the images this camera records.

Let me say that again. I love the images this camera records. Film cameras and film stock are not perfect either. Gate weave, shutter problems, lab issues, subtle scratches etc.

In my XL1, I had to suffer the softness of frame mode, especially on wide shots. Plus the lower rez of Canon. Or if deinterlaced in post, I got problematic jaggies and motion artificacts caused by lack of motion blur.

That affected the entire visible image. It was a limitation.
I'm sorry, but I don't understand you terming this a "flaw". Screen grabs are actually a fairly mediocre way to judge a cam.

Motion picture images are, well in motion. It's the 24P and 1/24 and 1/48th that excites me. -->>>

I'm not disputing that this cam is capable of nice imaging. The reason the fringing is an issue for me, is that many of my most recent projects were delivered for vhs delivery and broadcast. However, the clients have also wanted the footage recompressed for web delivery, CDROM, DVD, and via laptops for their sales people. I've only been using GL1s for the last couple of years and can't recall ever seeing this sort of fringing. Granted, I typically am not ripping stills out of my footage. I use a digicam for that. But if I'd delivered clips for web, CDROM, DVD, and laptop delivery that had pink/purple fringing along the left, I guarantee I'd have heard about it from the client. Why doesn't someone from Panasonic or one of the dealers chime in and either explain that it's normal, or that it's being fixed? Before this cam was released, the dealers and Pana reps were all over the place, now nothing. Don't you find that a bit odd? Again, I AM excited about this cams potential, and will most likely buy one, but not until someone sets my mind at ease regarding this fringing, and not until the cam gets "shaken down" a bit more. Thanks again for the feedback and clips! Keep'em comin'.

Skip Hunt

Stephen van Vuuren · October 14th, 2002, 10:24 AM

Skip:

Your GL1 has the same fringing, actually a little larger. It's covered by a black bar in the camera, so you don't notice that black bar when you create a web file. For the panny, just add the black bar on export to web.

I've updated by other cam page with a GL1 grab so you can see it.

Jeff Donald · October 14th, 2002, 10:43 AM

This topic has been covered on the XL1/s here

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1743

When the server crashed in July (maybe this thread was the cause of all the heat) this thread was very active and a number of posts around the beginning of July were lost.

This is a no win arguement. You're either on one side of the fence or the other. For some the line (fringing) is lost time and money. Plain and simple. For others it's no big deal and doesn't affect there production or post production in any manner. The important thing is to be aware that it's there before you buy. Nobody likes surprises in this business.

Jeff

Skip Hunt · October 14th, 2002, 12:15 PM

I just went over a dozen stills I delivered to a client from GL1 footage and I can't find any fringing at all. I'll post later. So no... my GL1 does NOT have this flaw.

skip

Stephen van Vuuren · October 14th, 2002, 12:23 PM

We are talking about two different things. I'm referring to the fringes at the edge of the frame - see the black bars at the edge.

You must be talking about edge issues, which I do see the same way others do.

David Nussbaum · October 16th, 2002, 08:57 PM

i know 60fps is default, but for 30ps, or 24p mode, do you simply press a button, and it records like that?

and for my next question:

what do you need to take advantage of the 24p mode? I mean, it shoots in prog scan, but then you upload to your comp, but will it still have that quality? or do you need a prog scan TV to support it? i dont understand.

(i guess sorta like how shows are shot in HDTV like on CBS, but if you dont support it, you see the normal footage)

Stephen van Vuuren · October 16th, 2002, 09:03 PM

Actually 60fps is 60 fields per second.
30p and 24p are frames per second.

Per choosing, the camera has a rotary scene file switch for storing settings (5). There are presets, two 60i, 30p and two 24p, but you can change them to anything you want.

I have 4 24p modes and 30P. 60i sucks :)

Per editing, check the resource page (top item in this forum) for lots of links to detail information plus look at the FAQ Aaron posted here. All very helpful.

October 13th, 2002, 09:26 PM	#52
Skip Hunt Regular Crew Join Date: May 2002 Location: Austin, Texas Posts: 37	fringing... <<<-- Originally posted by Stephen van Vuuren : Without question for me. I'm working on my second short for festival circuit. I sold my XL1 with 3X wide and 14X manual lens to get two of these. The image is so much better than XL1 frame mode or XL1 deinterlaced in post. And wide and tele adaptors will arrive soon enough and won't affect the image near as much as the low res XL1 image does. -->>> With all due respest and gratitude for your posting sample clips and sharing your impressions.... aren't you at least a little concerned about this purple fringing, etc.? I know it's been argued that it can be found on some Canon's and Sony's, but what I've seen from this DVX100 is quite obviously a flaw. I agree the camera looks quite promising, but I'm a little surprised no one has stepped up to explain this flaw. Have you contacted your dealer or Panasonic yet to inquire about it? If so, what did they say? If I'd recieved one of these first cams and found such blatant fringing and abberation, I'd certainly be demanding explanation, a refund, or a date that my cross-shipped flaw-free unit would be arriving. Thoughts? skip hunt

October 13th, 2002, 10:04 PM	#53
Stephen van Vuuren Space Hipster Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,508	It's not a flaw in my view. I'm kind of puzzled as to the large reaction since I've seen fringes on screen grabs (black, yellow, though pink is a first) since I started messing with DV. Plus, my guess is that some of occasional artifacts may occur with the increased data recorded by the camera head, then forced into DV compression. I would expect the images to have occasional artifacts, depeding on settings, lighting and the like. This crops up, even on HD. It's a fact of life with video cams. Check some recent post on 2-pop from posters who've done film out for a living. On my XL1, a black bar was added by the cam to cover the fringe. And it was much larger than this area. On this cam, no black bar so we see pink. It's not visible on any NTSC monitor, nor on web output, nor on film out. What exactly are you concerned about? You are wanting me to call me dealer about a flaw in the non visible area of the image? I would be concerned if it showed up when I was actually watching or projecting my image, but I love the images this camera records. Let me say that again. I love the images this camera records. Film cameras and film stock are not perfect either. Gate weave, shutter problems, lab issues, subtle scratches etc. In my XL1, I had to suffer the softness of frame mode, especially on wide shots. Plus the lower rez of Canon. Or if deinterlaced in post, I got problematic jaggies and motion artificacts caused by lack of motion blur. That affected the entire visible image. It was a limitation. I'm sorry, but I don't understand you terming this a "flaw". Screen grabs are actually a fairly mediocre way to judge a cam. Motion picture images are, well in motion. It's the 24P and 1/24 and 1/48th that excites me. __________________ stephen v2 www.insaturnsrings.com

October 14th, 2002, 06:36 AM	#54
Skip Hunt Regular Crew Join Date: May 2002 Location: Austin, Texas Posts: 37	issue... <<<-- Originally posted by Stephen van Vuuren : It's not a flaw in my view. I'm kind of puzzled as to the large reaction since I've seen fringes on screen grabs (black, yellow, though pink is a first) since I started messing with DV. Plus, my guess is that some of occasional artifacts may occur with the increased data recorded by the camera head, then forced into DV compression. I would expect the images to have occasional artifacts, depeding on settings, lighting and the like. This crops up, even on HD. It's a fact of life with video cams. Check some recent post on 2-pop from posters who've done film out for a living. On my XL1, a black bar was added by the cam to cover the fringe. And it was much larger than this area. On this cam, no black bar so we see pink. It's not visible on any NTSC monitor, nor on web output, nor on film out. What exactly are you concerned about? You are wanting me to call me dealer about a flaw in the non visible area of the image? I would be concerned if it showed up when I was actually watching or projecting my image, but I love the images this camera records. Let me say that again. I love the images this camera records. Film cameras and film stock are not perfect either. Gate weave, shutter problems, lab issues, subtle scratches etc. In my XL1, I had to suffer the softness of frame mode, especially on wide shots. Plus the lower rez of Canon. Or if deinterlaced in post, I got problematic jaggies and motion artificacts caused by lack of motion blur. That affected the entire visible image. It was a limitation. I'm sorry, but I don't understand you terming this a "flaw". Screen grabs are actually a fairly mediocre way to judge a cam. Motion picture images are, well in motion. It's the 24P and 1/24 and 1/48th that excites me. -->>> I'm not disputing that this cam is capable of nice imaging. The reason the fringing is an issue for me, is that many of my most recent projects were delivered for vhs delivery and broadcast. However, the clients have also wanted the footage recompressed for web delivery, CDROM, DVD, and via laptops for their sales people. I've only been using GL1s for the last couple of years and can't recall ever seeing this sort of fringing. Granted, I typically am not ripping stills out of my footage. I use a digicam for that. But if I'd delivered clips for web, CDROM, DVD, and laptop delivery that had pink/purple fringing along the left, I guarantee I'd have heard about it from the client. Why doesn't someone from Panasonic or one of the dealers chime in and either explain that it's normal, or that it's being fixed? Before this cam was released, the dealers and Pana reps were all over the place, now nothing. Don't you find that a bit odd? Again, I AM excited about this cams potential, and will most likely buy one, but not until someone sets my mind at ease regarding this fringing, and not until the cam gets "shaken down" a bit more. Thanks again for the feedback and clips! Keep'em comin'. Skip Hunt

October 14th, 2002, 10:24 AM	#55
Stephen van Vuuren Space Hipster Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,508	Skip: Your GL1 has the same fringing, actually a little larger. It's covered by a black bar in the camera, so you don't notice that black bar when you create a web file. For the panny, just add the black bar on export to web. I've updated by other cam page with a GL1 grab so you can see it. __________________ stephen v2 www.insaturnsrings.com

October 14th, 2002, 12:15 PM	#57
Skip Hunt Regular Crew Join Date: May 2002 Location: Austin, Texas Posts: 37	my GL1 doesn't have it.... I just went over a dozen stills I delivered to a client from GL1 footage and I can't find any fringing at all. I'll post later. So no... my GL1 does NOT have this flaw. skip

October 13th, 2002, 11:42 AM	#46
Jeff Donald Warden Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Clearwater, FL Posts: 8,287	I think it depends on your time frame for wanting (needing?) a camera and waiting to see what Canon and the rest of the players do in regards to the DVX100. In the short term this camera is affecting the pricing of the XL1 and others. In the long term all the manufactures are working on something similar to this. At this point Panasonic has set the bar, the rest will try to exceed it. If you have an investment in Canon equipment and lenses it might benefit you to wait. I suspect Canon will have something on the market within a year or so to directly compete with the DVX100. They don't want to lose the market share and lead they have in this segment. If you can't wait, the Panasonic has features and benefits that no other camera at this price point have. Will this camera make or break your next project for a festival? I hope not. An alternative strategy would be to invest in a high end film effect plug-in like Magic Bullet ($1,000). Start saving for the Canon's equivalent or Sony's etc. Jeff

October 13th, 2002, 12:07 PM	#47
Ryan Wachter Regular Crew Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 164	well my goal as of right now is, that I have been saving and plan to purchase a minidv camera and editing equipment close to summer. This summer I want to start on my first serious short project.

October 13th, 2002, 12:27 PM	#48
Jeff Donald Warden Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Clearwater, FL Posts: 8,287	Summer for me is 9 months away. That would give you time to buy your editing equipment and get up to speed on it. Most people find the learning curve is much steeper on NLE software than a camera. Take a wait and see attitude toward the cameras. This will do two things for you. As competitors to the DVX100 come out they will have newer and different (advanced?) features from which to choose. The price of the DVX100 will fall as competitors come to market. By waiting until you are closer to starting production you'll save some money. Money that can buy a better mic, more Ram, another hard drive etc. Cameras are all glamor and sexy. We like the buttons and menus and cool stuff. But they really are just a tool. Don't be fooled by all the hype surrounding a new product. If you have any experience shooting you won't need the camera until a few months before production so that you can get familiar with the features. Once you get your NLE up and running, rent a DVX100 for a weekend and try it out. It may or may not be the camera you think it is. jeff

October 13th, 2002, 01:29 PM	#49
Ryan Wachter Regular Crew Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 164	ok, great. So what you are suggesting is to get the editing equipment now and start getting use to that asap. Then wait until summers about here to decide on a camera, after Ive tested a few out and let the prices drop? Sounds like a good idea to me.

October 13th, 2002, 01:39 PM	#50
Jeff Donald Warden Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Clearwater, FL Posts: 8,287	If I were shopping for a whole set-up that's what I would do. the editing equipment and software will not change a great deal in nine months. I edit all my projects on a two year old Mac G4. Plenty of horsepower for what I do. Editing shorts in not all that demanding on a system in most cases. jeff

October 13th, 2002, 02:05 PM	#51
Ryan Wachter Regular Crew Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 164	Yes I just posted in the MAC forum about it. I too am looking into a G4 set up.

October 14th, 2002, 10:43 AM	#56
Jeff Donald Warden Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Clearwater, FL Posts: 8,287	This topic has been covered on the XL1/s here http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1743 When the server crashed in July (maybe this thread was the cause of all the heat) this thread was very active and a number of posts around the beginning of July were lost. This is a no win arguement. You're either on one side of the fence or the other. For some the line (fringing) is lost time and money. Plain and simple. For others it's no big deal and doesn't affect there production or post production in any manner. The important thing is to be aware that it's there before you buy. Nobody likes surprises in this business. Jeff

October 14th, 2002, 12:23 PM	#58
Stephen van Vuuren Space Hipster Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,508	We are talking about two different things. I'm referring to the fringes at the edge of the frame - see the black bars at the edge. You must be talking about edge issues, which I do see the same way others do. __________________ stephen v2 www.insaturnsrings.com

October 16th, 2002, 08:57 PM	#59
David Nussbaum Regular Crew Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Issaquah, WA Posts: 69	How do you achieve 24p, 30 fps or 60fps, etc? i know 60fps is default, but for 30ps, or 24p mode, do you simply press a button, and it records like that? and for my next question: what do you need to take advantage of the 24p mode? I mean, it shoots in prog scan, but then you upload to your comp, but will it still have that quality? or do you need a prog scan TV to support it? i dont understand. (i guess sorta like how shows are shot in HDTV like on CBS, but if you dont support it, you see the normal footage) __________________ Proud Owner of the AG-DVX100 :D

October 16th, 2002, 09:03 PM	#60
Stephen van Vuuren Space Hipster Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,508	Actually 60fps is 60 fields per second. 30p and 24p are frames per second. Per choosing, the camera has a rotary scene file switch for storing settings (5). There are presets, two 60i, 30p and two 24p, but you can change them to anything you want. I have 4 24p modes and 30P. 60i sucks :) Per editing, check the resource page (top item in this forum) for lots of links to detail information plus look at the FAQ Aaron posted here. All very helpful. __________________ stephen v2 www.insaturnsrings.com