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Panasonic LUMIX G / GF / GH / GX Series
4K and AVCHD on a Micro Four Thirds system camera with interchangeable lenses.


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Old March 9th, 2009, 07:06 AM   #16
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Ok, confirmed. It has HDMI.

It looks like we'll be able to capture uncompressed footage from this cam. Hopefully we'll be able to bypass the pulldown used to convert 24p into 60i. (CORRECTION!!: Steve Mullen has confirmed the 24p clips are real 24p and not 60i.)

So... This is really becoming my dream camera in terms of price, sensor size and features. The only things I'm still a bit worried about are rolling shutter (it's not as noticeable as D90's or 5D's but it's still there) and Steve Mullen's comment about the lack of a 1/48 shutter in 24p mode which is basic to get a cinema motion feel.

We'll have to see more video samples.
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Old March 9th, 2009, 08:17 AM   #17
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... the lack of a 1/48 shutter in 24p mode which is basic to get a cinema motion feel.
The frame-rate for a "movie feel" is anything low -- from 24fps to 30fps. It really makes no difference to an audience.

The shutter-speed adds and removes motion blur.

Therefore, your shutter-speed depends on how fast motion is in the frame AND how the you want the motion to look. Many of us have shot 16mm with 150-degrees, not 180-degrees. Our film didn't not look "un-film-like." :)

The coming FEB issue of Broadcast Engineering (Broadcast Engineering and Digital Television) has my article on judder in inexpensive cameras. Bottom-line there will always be TOO MUCH compared to film.

However, given the inherent judder, it would be useful to have a slow shutter-speed to add more motion blur. That's the reason 1/30th or 1/48th would be useful. But, CMOS chips run at 60Hz and have a minimum shutter time of 1/60th second. (Unless you use multiple exposure times as the EX1/EX3 allow at $10,000.)

Therefore, you'll have to tightly control motion within the frame and of the frame.

PS: yes, 25p with 1/50th second will be better.
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Old March 9th, 2009, 08:42 AM   #18
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A short hands on with some footage has been posted at http://www.slashgear.com/panasonic-m...tests-0736780/. It doesn't state what format/rate this was shot at, but this edit is 720 at 23.98. It does look as though there are some banding and jello problems, though as is pointed out, this is a pre production model.

Steve, I look forward to seeing the footage you post, I wondered if you noticed any of these problems when you used the camera?

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Old March 9th, 2009, 08:51 AM   #19
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The frame-rate for a "movie feel" is anything low -- from 24fps to 30fps. It really makes no difference to an audience.
Well, I agree on the fact that 25fps and 24fps are almost the same and have virtually no visual differences, but I can tell the difference between 24-25fps and 30fps and I think most people here can. Otherwise there wouldnt' be so many people asking for a 24p mode on the 5D MKII.

As you say, the 25fps 1/50 PAL version will probably look better.
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Old March 9th, 2009, 01:09 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by Jose A. Garcia View Post
Ok, confirmed. It has HDMI.

It looks like we'll be able to capture uncompressed footage from this cam. Hopefully we'll be able to bypass the pulldown used to convert 24p into 60i. (CORRECTION!!: Steve Mullen has confirmed the 24p clips are real 24p and not 60i.)
Maybe. Hopefully. Let me play devil's advocate.
The DP Review specs+Manufacturer's Product Announcement mention using HDMI for playback. They say nothing about it being live while shooting. And will what gets there while previewing or shooting have completely bypassed the codec engine in the cam?

And that's great news about the 24p being real 24p, not inserted into a 60i bitstream.
But the odds are good that what comes out the HDMI port will have pulldown inserted for broadest TV compatibility, isn't it? Of course that can be removed...

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Originally Posted by Jose A. Garcia View Post
So... This is really becoming my dream camera in terms of price, sensor size and features.
You are not alone. I just wish it went up to 1080p25,30/1080i50,60. And the maximum 24 MBps bitrate.

It didn't seem to make much difference when Canon pushed the bitrate from 17 Mbps to 24 Mbps on the HG/HF series consumer cams. The consensus was that the lens+sensor was most likely the limiting factor.

I don't think the lens+sensor is the limiting factor here.

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Originally Posted by Jose A. Garcia View Post
We'll have to see more video samples.
No kidding. I think this is where Panasonic has done the worst with the marketing of this camera. It may have to do with still finalizing details going to final production. But here we are, drooling idiots foaming at the mouth to get the goods on this camera...

Last edited by Bill Koehler; March 9th, 2009 at 01:11 PM. Reason: typo
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Old March 9th, 2009, 06:37 PM   #21
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Maybe. Hopefully. Let me play devil's advocate.
The DP Review specs+Manufacturer's Product Announcement mention using HDMI for playback. They say nothing about it being live while shooting. And will what gets there while previewing or shooting have completely bypassed the codec engine in the cam?

And that's great news about the 24p being real 24p, not inserted into a 60i bitstream.
But the odds are good that what comes out the HDMI port will have pulldown inserted for broadest TV compatibility, isn't it? Of course that can be removed...

You are not alone. I just wish it went up to 1080p25,30/1080i50,60. And the maximum 24 MBps bitrate.
If you think about it, you'll only need uncompressed footage for vfx shots or heavy color grading. Sure it would be interesting to have a higher bitrate, but I think it'll do ok for standard shooting.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Koehler View Post
It didn't seem to make much difference when Canon pushed the bitrate from 17 Mbps to 24 Mbps on the HG/HF series consumer cams. The consensus was that the lens+sensor was most likely the limiting factor.

I don't think the lens+sensor is the limiting factor here.

No kidding. I think this is where Panasonic has done the worst with the marketing of this camera. It may have to do with still finalizing details going to final production. But here we are, drooling idiots foaming at the mouth to get the goods on this camera...
I'm also looking forward to seeing more footage samples. You'd think that since the main difference between this cam and the G1 is FullHD video shooting, there'd be more sample shots released by Panasonic itself, but every single article about the camera just talks and talks about the amazing 1080p24 mode not showing video samples.

If you take a look at the only video showing basic 1080p video shooting with this camera so far, you'll notice quite visible banding in dark areas. I think Panasonic didn't show official clips yet because video mode's not completely ready for production. That's what I hope at least, because it would be really disappointing to finally buy this cam and realize that the video's just the same as it was in the pre-production model including the banding.

I guess we'll be able to see when the first finished pre-sales models are offered to some lucky ones, just like Vincent LaForet and his 5DMKII.

As I said, I'm still worried with shutter speed, judder, rolling shutter... One of the most important points when trying to match a cinema look is the sense of continuous movement, and extreme judder doesn't help.
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Old March 9th, 2009, 06:40 PM   #22
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Not to side-track things, but... is the general consensus leaning toward a dedicated DVi forum?
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Old March 9th, 2009, 06:44 PM   #23
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I don't think the lens+sensor is the limiting factor here.
Anyway one of the first lenses I'll buy for this cam is this one:

Four Thirds | Products | Standard Zoom

That's a 36-100mm for the GH1 with F2.8 on the whole zoom range. Looks interesting.
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Old March 9th, 2009, 08:08 PM   #24
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Not to side-track things, but... is the general consensus leaning toward a dedicated DVi forum?
You might wait for some video to be posted. If it looks reasonably good, this camera will be a hit, and will deserve its own forum. In the unlikely event that people hate the video, it might become more of a novelty.

Then again, with 1080/24 and manual control, the video will have to be pretty sad for this camera not to be successful.

Still, I'd wait to see the pictures, just to make sure...
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Old March 10th, 2009, 01:17 AM   #25
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Anyway one of the first lenses I'll buy for this cam is this one:

Four Thirds | Products | Standard Zoom

That's a 36-100mm for the GH1 with F2.8 on the whole zoom range. Looks interesting.
Just one thing I would be cautious about.
They made a big deal about the new lenses for the GH1 being quiet.
No focus/zoom noise that then gets picked up in the audio.
With that caveat, I would say the 18-180mm also looks interesting.
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Old March 10th, 2009, 01:44 AM   #26
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OK -- here is the link to ExposureRoom:

Steve Mullen On ExposureRoom - Videos

Remember these are 3rd generation videos. Anyway, I was checking for motion judder because I could see noise in the prototype which meant it was not a unit I was going to use for pix quality checks. You can also see the AF and AE at work.

The zoom ring was so stiff there was no way I was going to try zooming while shooting. Big negative for run & gun.

The other negative -- I have small hands and the grip was WAY too tiny to feel good and to feel solid. Pana skimped it a crucial area.

The switches and manual controls were wonderful. The symbols made no sense to me or to the rep.

Enjoy!
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Old March 10th, 2009, 09:45 AM   #27
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I really hope video is a bit better in the final camera. Judder on the 1080p clip, too much banding on the 720p one and both samples show important rolling shutter artifacts. DOF is great though.
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Old March 10th, 2009, 01:42 PM   #28
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Steve, Thanks for posting these clips. The banding is again quite severe on these shots, so hopefully they will correct this before the release date. Looks promising though.

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Old March 10th, 2009, 09:07 PM   #29
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Steve, Thanks for posting these clips. The banding is again quite severe on these shots, so hopefully they will correct this before the release date. Looks promising though.

Adrian
I was at the show an hour before it closed, so I'm not surprised the camera was not working well. Rolling shutter is just a fact of life.
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Old March 10th, 2009, 09:16 PM   #30
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I'm also wondering if there's any way to smooth the juddering a bit.
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