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Panasonic LUMIX G / GF / GH / GX Series
4K and AVCHD on a Micro Four Thirds system camera with interchangeable lenses.


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Old May 7th, 2009, 06:47 PM   #31
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You're right...24p is no limitation. There is definitely an obvious difference between 24p and 30p and 60p. I don't know what this animosity towards 24p is. I've been hearing a lot of this talk mostly from the 5D camp. The 5D makes nice pictures no doubt but to get there is problematic. 30p just doesn't cut it...for me at least. The GH-1 also makes beautiful pictures...especially in 720p. 1080/24p is sharp...but that train scene was worst case scenario.

17Mbps is plenty in most cases...but in the case of the GH-1 even Panasonic admitted it was implemented differently...and you can see that n the 24p/1080 mode. It's funny...17Mbps was common in most camcorders up to six months ago....and no one complained then. I think Panasonic knew they had too good a thing with this GH-1 and made sure it wasn't TOO good.

But 720p kicks but...with rolling shutter skew (comparable to Red One)..stable image in fast pans and fast motion...sharp image...beautiful slow motion...and you can drop it on the timeline and get smooth 24p in normal or slow motion. I would buy two or more of these cams.
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Old May 7th, 2009, 07:01 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by Ian G. Thompson View Post
But 720p kicks but...with rolling shutter skew (comparable to Red One)..stable image in fast pans and fast motion...sharp image...beautiful slow motion...and you can drop it on the timeline and get smooth 24p in normal or slow motion. I would buy two or more of these cams.
I was waiting to drop my bomb of discovery on this. Its now been widely reported and witnessed that 1080 mode at 17mbs has issues and it's now clear that it does. It can fall apart fast with complex scenes with a lot of motion.

So everyone is saying that, well, 720p is the sweet spot for this camera. Well the awful truth of the matter as far as what I have been able to test with actual footage from the camera is this.

If you shoot in 720 mode, it's recording at 60fps, which you could choose to:

A) use it for overcranking purpose for slow motion.
B) Speed it up to 200% in a 30fps timeline for normal speed.

But you can't just throw this 720p60 footage into a 24fps timeline and think it's 24fps. IT IS NOT.

You will have the same awful stuttering mistake of a cadence that you get whenever you throw 30p into a 24p timeline.

So in short, based on my findings and testing, 720p mode is not 24p - it is 60p or 30p. If you decide to convert it to some other frame rate, you'll be entering the world of frame rate conversion which involves a lot of tricks and compromises between frame blending and - my personal favorite - Twixtor for vector based morphing to do the conversion.

With all that said... the workflow for the GH1 is getting more tricky as the details roll in.

If someone is finding that they somehow buried 24fps inside 60fps (like the HVX/HPXs can do), please report. I have not found that to be the case.

Last point - I have a GH1 on pre-order from Amazon. So I'm not just a 5DMkII owner, hating on the GH1.

-steev
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Old May 7th, 2009, 08:39 PM   #33
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It's funny because some of the guys who already had this cam for the last week states that 60p dropped on a 24p time line looks beautiful and that you can't tell that it was not shot in straight up 24p (of course you have to have the right shutter settings). I hear what you are saying about 60p not being 24p...how different is it from when we use it in slow motion on a 24p time line? If there is stuttering in "normal" motion...shouldn't there be also in slow motion (I would think more pronounced). But that is not the case...because folks have been using 60p on a 24p timeline since...forever. :)

Now the issue of the 24p/1080 is not as bad as some folks suggest. The footage we have been seeing as I stated earlier is more like worst case scenario. I have an HV20...and HDV will be ripped apart in the same situation. There are some other 24p footage that looks great from the GH-1...especially when shooting with a blurred background which seems more tolerant on the compression. Like THIS one for example:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uTlCp...eature=channel

and this one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qFIFh...eature=channel

Even with YouTube compression I think they look great.

Edit: Oh and check out some of the 24p files on the Watch Impress Web site:

http://translate.google.com/translat...ml&sl=ja&tl=en
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Old May 7th, 2009, 09:19 PM   #34
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It's funny that people don't like the 24P mode with the GH1 when 24P is all everybody kept screaming about for the 5D. You mean 24P is juddery? Who knew? Maybe that's why all these new HDTVs have frame creation modes to "fix" 24P so it won't look so crappy. Maybe we can all move on from this ancient 24P format to something better, newer and that makes more sense given the modern world. It's not 1950 anymore.
Thinking about it, 24P is as a kind of an assumed 'fourth wall' comfy-seat. Tastes change, and standards are meant to be broken...
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Old May 7th, 2009, 11:16 PM   #35
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I hear what you are saying about 60p not being 24p...how different is it from when we use it in slow motion on a 24p time line?
It's a lot different. Overcranking for slow motion vs trying to resolve 60p to 24p with the intention of making it look as if it was shot at 24p is proving to be "dissatisfying", if I'm to put it gently.

Take a look at these tests with 60p to 24p I've done on the HVX200:

720p60 at 1/120 shutter speed - it's stuttery. It's close though! I tried slower shutter, but it got blurry looking. Tried faster shutter and the stutter got worse.
http://www.holyzoo.com/content/dslr/...4p-720x405.mov

720p24N at 1/48 shutter speed - smooth as we all know this combo is.
http://www.holyzoo.com/content/dslr/...4p-720x405.mov

If someone can't tell the difference, go shoot like mad in 720p60 and throw it into a 24p timeline and be happy. To me it looks like garbage, and that's not even mentioning what different frame rates look like.


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Originally Posted by Ian G. Thompson View Post
because folks have been using 60p on a 24p timeline since...forever.
Who? What? Where?

Again, I see the 720p now as a slow motion technique on this camera and *with some work*, I can see pulling off the illusion as if it was shot at 24fps. I can pull that off with the 5DMkII as well.

Point being that I don't think anyone should think it's as simple as dropping it into 24p and they won't see the ramifications and stuttering that they'll have to figure out how to resolve and diminish, or just scrap that footage altogether.

The plot thickens...

p.s. I thought I'd shed further light on using the camera as slow motion in 24p. That's also not straightforward.

Here's dropping GH1 720p60 footage into 24p:
http://www.holyzoo.com/content/dslr/...op-720x405.mov

Here's conforming it correctly in Cinema Tools first:
http://www.holyzoo.com/content/dslr/...ed-720x405.mov
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Old May 8th, 2009, 12:07 AM   #36
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Ok, so I really do want to love this camera.

But watch the codec fall apart on a slow pan down from some trees.

In 1080p:
http://av.watch.impress.co.jp/video/.../999/00014.MTS

It's better in 720 60p, but not as much better as you'd think:
http://av.watch.impress.co.jp/video/.../999/00015.MTS

And watch the cell-phone-esque quality of 30p motion jpeg:
http://av.watch.impress.co.jp/video/...9/P1000022.MOV

Am I crazy or is this pathetic?

I have nothing to gain by saying any of this, I am in the market and hungry for a camera like this, have watched every detail of the GH1 that I could find, and am just really disappointed. It's so close to being amazing. This is what kills it, and it just seems unnecessary/panasonic being totally ignorant or protecting their camcorder division.

-M
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Old May 8th, 2009, 01:55 AM   #37
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This is what kills it, and it just seems unnecessary/panasonic being totally ignorant or protecting their camcorder division.

-M
I wonder if it comes down to how much awesome practice this camera has been for Panasonic engineers and now they are even closer to launching a pro version. But given their lineup? I'd guess they will charge well into the $20k for it. Unless they just kill everything and go $5000 range.

I was discussing this with a friend recently and we deduced that Canon and Nikon are best poised for going for the kill at this point.

There's also Red, but the discussion was centered around the big established corporations.

I'm still pretty blown away with the GH1 for $1500 and all complaints absorbing, I'm still gonna get my hands on one.
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Old May 8th, 2009, 06:58 AM   #38
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The 1080p pan looks fine to me, better than HDV compression. What's the problem with it ?
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Old May 8th, 2009, 08:57 AM   #39
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Who? What? Where?
I was specifically talking about for slow motion... But I do understand what you are saying.
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Old May 8th, 2009, 09:06 AM   #40
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The 1080p pan looks fine to me, better than HDV compression. What's the problem with it ?
Look at the exact same shot, exact same datarate AVCHD from the canon HF10.
http://av.watch.impress.co.jp/docs/20080723/ezsm022.mts

If you can't see the difference here, you and I have nothing more to say to one another. :)

It's not the numbers, it's the quality of the codec. Canon has always had an edge with codecs, but this just looks like Panasonic being lazy with their implementation.

*sigh* But honestly, I'm still probably going to get one and use it for what it's good at. Unless scarlet decides to poke its head around.

Here's hoping a firmware fix might help the codec, or at least fix the 1080p at 17mbps.

-M
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Old May 8th, 2009, 11:39 AM   #41
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You're right, HF10 at the same bitrate looks way better...
Can it be because of Noise Reduction turned ON ? If not, let's pray for a fix :/
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Old May 8th, 2009, 01:42 PM   #42
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But watch the codec fall apart on a slow pan down from some trees.

In 1080p:
http://av.watch.impress.co.jp/video/.../999/00014.MTS
That's a terrible shot for several reasons - one, it's the wrong speed for shooting 24fps (consult your ASC guide). If someone gave me such a shot, it would quickly end on the editing room floor.

More importantly, the shutter speed is way too high which is why the codec struggles. Shoot the shot properly and it will look beautiful.

The HF10 shoot looks bad to me too - but it's slower, so it's not the "same shot"
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Old May 8th, 2009, 02:26 PM   #43
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Also, what about sharpening? the Canon and cameras like it has sharpening way too high (even when turned down) which would make the picture look sharper. I'm not sure what the settings were for the GH-1 in these comparisons. but if they want it to be apples to apples i think these settings should be taken into consideration.
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Old May 8th, 2009, 04:06 PM   #44
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a possibly relevant quotation?

This quotation from Mark Von Lanken's review of the AG-HMC150 for Event DV might be relevant to this discussion of the GH1's codec:

"How does AVCHD stack up against HDV? AVCHD in the PH mode records at 21Mbps with the maximum variable rate at 24Mbps. HDV records at 25Mbps, the same as DV. Just looking at those numbers, I would rather record HDV's 25Mbps than AVCHD's 21 Mbps. But according to Sony's own marketing information, "The quality of AVCHD recording at 9Mbps (HD-HQ) mode is roughly equal to HDV recording." Since the HMC150 will record at 21Mbps and, according to Sony, AVCHD at 9Mbps is equal to HDV, is there any doubt to why the AVCHD format is superior to the HDV format? Keep in mind comparing the quality of video achieved with different codecs is not a simple bitrate comparison; MPEG-4 compression is far more efficient than MPEG-2."

full article: EventDV.net: In the Field: Panasonic AG-HMC150
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Old May 8th, 2009, 06:30 PM   #45
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Thanks everybody for the comments, but it's not sharpening, it's not shutter speed, it's not anything other than poor compression quality. I mean, look at it- it has nothing to do with any of that. Even when that camera hasn't moved yet it's obviously a much worse image.

The i frames are SUPER obvious on the panasonic, and regardless of whether that shot would end up on the editing room floor, the quality is very poor. Much worse than the canon at the same rate and far inferior to the HDV from my XH-A1.

People keep throwing around numbers saying "but AVCHD is a more efficient codec!!!" and it IS, but this footage is NOT. I mean, just look at the footage, there are a ton of excuses being made, but the fact is it is a poor version of a superior codec.

I do this stuff and analyze footage every day all day for a living, I know what I'm seeing.

-M
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