Getting a video camera

Les Wilson · September 22nd, 2011, 05:07 AM

Videos claiming to be "Low light tests of camera XYZ" or whatever that don't A/B it with other cameras or use industry standard charts and lighting are no tests at all. Unless they put the GH2 in the same conditions, and post process it the same way, I wouldn't conclude much if anything.

The XF100 supported formats includes a 50MBS 4:2:2 recording. Beyond the 4:2:2, the higher data rate should give you advantages over the GH2's AVCHD format when you start manipulating the image in post (grading, zooming, etc). If all you do is look at original footage and cut it, then you probably won't experience that advantage of the XF100.

William Hohauser · September 22nd, 2011, 05:40 AM

This is what I've experienced from a practical shooting viewpoint. DSLRs with their large format chips produce stunning images but lack the overall flexibility of your average video camera, even a cheap one. I've stopped using my GH2 at most shoots except interviews or very controlled situations. It's a great camera, just got a 7" LCD for it, but it just doesn't work for many traditional video situations. Don't only look at Canon equipment, Panasonic and JVC both make low end pro cameras that can fill your needs. The trick is in placing the mixed up equipment in the right places at your shoots and you can mask the difference between chip sizes and image characteristics. I find that it's the difference in camera sensors that make for the biggest aesthetic problems in editing rather than the bit rate or color space or even the form of HD used.

Chris Harding · September 22nd, 2011, 05:52 AM

Hi Jeff

It's probably also quite important to realise that your brides have no interest whatever in what format you shoot and what bitrate you use. We do tend to get caught up in our own webs when it comes to technical perfection and then after hours of painstaking work all the bride is really worried about is whether her dress and the bridesmaids look good!!! With weddings content is still absolutely king!!

Look at our friend Don Bloom who still shoots in SD and has bride's scrambling for his services... I very much doubt whether they choose Don because of the technical specs of his cameras!!! He just provides magnificent content!!

Hope you find something that complements the GH2's well!! I use a matched pair of HMC's so I don't have the issue (besides, I'm not brave enough to fight with manual controls when things get busy which is probably your main reason getting a video camera again!!!

I would also seriously look at Panny's new ENG cam the AG160 and it should be about the same price as the Canon.

Chris

Tim Akin · September 22nd, 2011, 08:04 AM

Jeff, in your opinion, what kind of zoom lens would it take to make the GH2 work for you, for wedding work?

I'm sure it would have to be Olympus or Pany. Are any of the rumored Panasonic lenses coming out worth waiting for?

Jeff Harper · September 22nd, 2011, 08:47 AM

Chris, I googled the Panasonic you mentioned and I think you might have the model # wrong, I'd like to see it. Edit: My salesman recommended the same camera this morning Chris, and you are right on the money, my friend, outstanding camera, blows the Canon away, and it's AVCHD. I never thought I see the day when I would think AVCHD to be preferable to anything! The sensor in the Panasonic is apparently the same used in their $9K camera or some such thing, and is phenomenal. It's $2K out of my price range, not available yet, and I've only got 6 weeks of weddings left, so I'm in a pickle.

Tim, in my opinion, there is nothing even close that will work for me. The news ones included. But the closest would be this: ED 35-100mm f2.0

I personally do not want to spend that much money on a zoom and not have autofoucs that I can rely on.

See this is the thing. A videocamera like the XF100 with a modest 10x zoom has an equivalent range of 30mm to 300mm and autofocus that works as close to perfect as one could ask.

This is what we give up with a DSLR, or hybrid. Ever since I got the GH2, despite how much I liked it, I only then fully appreciated the power of the lenses in "proper" videocameras", such as your FX1000. Despite the age of your camera, it is still a remarkably powerful tool. Now I understand why when someone has to replace a lens in a videocamera, why it costs the same as a new camera almost. The lens is everything.

Your question is a good one and one that has bugged the hell out of me for months, and is why I'm adding a videocamera to my toolkit. It won't be perfect, and will bring in a host of new issues, but I hope the advantages will outweigh the cons.

Tim Akin · September 22nd, 2011, 09:02 AM

I'm sure when you start shooting with something like the XF100, your going to think "how did I ever shoot weddings without a video camera"

William Hohauser · September 22nd, 2011, 09:42 AM

Most HD cameras with replaceable lenses, the lens can cost way more then the camera itself. Easy to find a $4000 HD video camera that comes with a working decent lens and the next step up in lens models costs $8000.

Jeff Harper · September 22nd, 2011, 09:51 AM

Tim, you are right I'm sure!

Nigel Barker · September 22nd, 2011, 11:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff Harper

I wanted a "real" videocamera, something with some real controls on it, and I also wanted 720 60p, and I REALLY want 1080 60p badly. I won't be able to use 1080 60p much since my gh2s don't have it, but it will be nice to have the option.

The XF100 does not have 1080 60p neither does its big brother the XF300.

Nigel Barker · September 22nd, 2011, 11:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff Harper

Just watched a well-shot video in 1080 24p shot with the Canon. It is sad how much less detail the video has in comparison to the GH2. Really is a dramatic difference, at least from what I'm used to seeing, but of course with re-compression by youtube it may not be all that bad, but still it was sobering. On the other hand his shots were perfectly exposed, in focus, and he made great use of the zoom, reminding me of why I am going this route!

The image quality of the XF100 is great, it's all but indistinguishable from its big brother the XF300. It has very nice natural colour too & the footage will cut together well. I would suspect this video is not a fair comparison as you have no idea what has happened to the footage between being shot & playing on YouTube. Trust me the XF footage straight off the camera is at least as good as the GH2.

Jeff Harper · September 22nd, 2011, 11:26 AM

Nigel, you are right about the 60pm and I realized it minutes after I posted that comment. Disappointed, to be sure, but not a deal breaker. thanks for you reassurance about the images.

Nigel, how are you dealing with the multiple files from the camera? Shooting multicam events I am concerned about the large number of files to deal with in post, particularly since I use Cineform for edtiting and will have to deal with dozens more individual clips. Syncing is already not fun with my current workflow.

John J. Arnold · September 22nd, 2011, 11:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff Harper

Chris, I googled the Panasonic you mentioned and I think you might have the model # wrong, I'd like to see it. Edit: My salesman recommended the same camera this morning Chris, and you are right on the money, my friend, outstanding camera, blows the Canon away, and it's AVCHD. I never thought I see the day when I would think AVCHD to be preferable to anything! The sensor in the Panasonic is apparently the same used in their $9K camera or some such thing, and is phenomenal. It's $2K out of my price range, not available yet, and I've only got 6 weeks of weddings left, so I'm in a pickle.
.

Jeff, did you look at the Panny AG AC130? It's similar to the 160, only lacking a few features, like HD SDI out: http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/768930-REG/Panasonic_AG_AC130_AG_AC130_AVCCAM_HD_Handheld.html
Costs a good bit less too.

Like you, I generally work solo on weddings and have been using the GH2/GH1 with my HMC150 for a while now, and I love both. Good luck with your new cam.

Jeff Harper · September 22nd, 2011, 12:32 PM

John, your recommendation is an excellent one, and I would like the camera very much, I'm sure. The 160 isn't available till November, FWIW, but appears to be one of the best potential cameras at it's price point.

Unfortunately I desire a camera sooner to finish off the season, and may reluctantly go through with the Canon. It is a great camera, I'm not at all thrilled with the codec however, at least for my workflow, but such is life.

Les Wilson · September 22nd, 2011, 04:20 PM

This looks like a good deal:
http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/private-...118-hours.html

Don Bloom · September 22nd, 2011, 07:36 PM

The soon to be released ag-ac130 is actually the next step up from the hmc150.
It's price is under $4000 and has many improvements over the150.
Too bad it's not out yet. I've been looking at the Canon xf100 also but
The thing that I really don't care for is the 10x lens. I still shoot with PD170s and there are times
Evev the 12x isn't long enough for me. I'm going to wait until the 130
Comes out too make a decision.

September 22nd, 2011, 05:07 AM	#16
Les Wilson Inner Circle Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Boca Raton, FL Posts: 3,014	Re: Getting a video camera Videos claiming to be "Low light tests of camera XYZ" or whatever that don't A/B it with other cameras or use industry standard charts and lighting are no tests at all. Unless they put the GH2 in the same conditions, and post process it the same way, I wouldn't conclude much if anything. The XF100 supported formats includes a 50MBS 4:2:2 recording. Beyond the 4:2:2, the higher data rate should give you advantages over the GH2's AVCHD format when you start manipulating the image in post (grading, zooming, etc). If all you do is look at original footage and cut it, then you probably won't experience that advantage of the XF100.

September 22nd, 2011, 05:40 AM	#17
William Hohauser Inner Circle Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: New York City Posts: 2,650	Re: Getting a video camera This is what I've experienced from a practical shooting viewpoint. DSLRs with their large format chips produce stunning images but lack the overall flexibility of your average video camera, even a cheap one. I've stopped using my GH2 at most shoots except interviews or very controlled situations. It's a great camera, just got a 7" LCD for it, but it just doesn't work for many traditional video situations. Don't only look at Canon equipment, Panasonic and JVC both make low end pro cameras that can fill your needs. The trick is in placing the mixed up equipment in the right places at your shoots and you can mask the difference between chip sizes and image characteristics. I find that it's the difference in camera sensors that make for the biggest aesthetic problems in editing rather than the bit rate or color space or even the form of HD used. __________________ William Hohauser - New York City Producer/Edit/Camera/Animation

September 22nd, 2011, 05:52 AM	#18
Chris Harding Inner Circle Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Perth, Western Australia Posts: 8,441	Re: Getting a video camera Hi Jeff It's probably also quite important to realise that your brides have no interest whatever in what format you shoot and what bitrate you use. We do tend to get caught up in our own webs when it comes to technical perfection and then after hours of painstaking work all the bride is really worried about is whether her dress and the bridesmaids look good!!! With weddings content is still absolutely king!! Look at our friend Don Bloom who still shoots in SD and has bride's scrambling for his services... I very much doubt whether they choose Don because of the technical specs of his cameras!!! He just provides magnificent content!! Hope you find something that complements the GH2's well!! I use a matched pair of HMC's so I don't have the issue (besides, I'm not brave enough to fight with manual controls when things get busy which is probably your main reason getting a video camera again!!! I would also seriously look at Panny's new ENG cam the AG160 and it should be about the same price as the Canon. Chris

September 22nd, 2011, 08:04 AM	#19
Tim Akin Major Player Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Newbern, TN Posts: 414	Re: Getting a video camera Jeff, in your opinion, what kind of zoom lens would it take to make the GH2 work for you, for wedding work? I'm sure it would have to be Olympus or Pany. Are any of the rumored Panasonic lenses coming out worth waiting for? __________________ Tim

September 22nd, 2011, 08:47 AM	#20
Jeff Harper Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 8,425	Re: Getting a video camera Chris, I googled the Panasonic you mentioned and I think you might have the model # wrong, I'd like to see it. Edit: My salesman recommended the same camera this morning Chris, and you are right on the money, my friend, outstanding camera, blows the Canon away, and it's AVCHD. I never thought I see the day when I would think AVCHD to be preferable to anything! The sensor in the Panasonic is apparently the same used in their $9K camera or some such thing, and is phenomenal. It's $2K out of my price range, not available yet, and I've only got 6 weeks of weddings left, so I'm in a pickle. Tim, in my opinion, there is nothing even close that will work for me. The news ones included. But the closest would be this: ED 35-100mm f2.0 I personally do not want to spend that much money on a zoom and not have autofoucs that I can rely on. See this is the thing. A videocamera like the XF100 with a modest 10x zoom has an equivalent range of 30mm to 300mm and autofocus that works as close to perfect as one could ask. This is what we give up with a DSLR, or hybrid. Ever since I got the GH2, despite how much I liked it, I only then fully appreciated the power of the lenses in "proper" videocameras", such as your FX1000. Despite the age of your camera, it is still a remarkably powerful tool. Now I understand why when someone has to replace a lens in a videocamera, why it costs the same as a new camera almost. The lens is everything. Your question is a good one and one that has bugged the hell out of me for months, and is why I'm adding a videocamera to my toolkit. It won't be perfect, and will bring in a host of new issues, but I hope the advantages will outweigh the cons. __________________ "The horror of what I saw on the timeline cannot be described." Last edited by Jeff Harper; September 22nd, 2011 at 09:50 AM.

September 22nd, 2011, 09:02 AM	#21
Tim Akin Major Player Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Newbern, TN Posts: 414	Re: Getting a video camera I'm sure when you start shooting with something like the XF100, your going to think "how did I ever shoot weddings without a video camera" __________________ Tim

September 22nd, 2011, 09:42 AM	#22
William Hohauser Inner Circle Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: New York City Posts: 2,650	Re: Getting a video camera Most HD cameras with replaceable lenses, the lens can cost way more then the camera itself. Easy to find a $4000 HD video camera that comes with a working decent lens and the next step up in lens models costs $8000. __________________ William Hohauser - New York City Producer/Edit/Camera/Animation

September 22nd, 2011, 09:51 AM	#23
Jeff Harper Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 8,425	Re: Getting a video camera Tim, you are right I'm sure! __________________ "The horror of what I saw on the timeline cannot be described."

September 22nd, 2011, 11:26 AM	#26
Jeff Harper Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 8,425	Re: Getting a video camera Nigel, you are right about the 60pm and I realized it minutes after I posted that comment. Disappointed, to be sure, but not a deal breaker. thanks for you reassurance about the images. Nigel, how are you dealing with the multiple files from the camera? Shooting multicam events I am concerned about the large number of files to deal with in post, particularly since I use Cineform for edtiting and will have to deal with dozens more individual clips. Syncing is already not fun with my current workflow. __________________ "The horror of what I saw on the timeline cannot be described."

September 22nd, 2011, 12:32 PM	#28
Jeff Harper Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 8,425	Re: Getting a video camera John, your recommendation is an excellent one, and I would like the camera very much, I'm sure. The 160 isn't available till November, FWIW, but appears to be one of the best potential cameras at it's price point. Unfortunately I desire a camera sooner to finish off the season, and may reluctantly go through with the Canon. It is a great camera, I'm not at all thrilled with the codec however, at least for my workflow, but such is life. __________________ "The horror of what I saw on the timeline cannot be described."

September 22nd, 2011, 04:20 PM	#29
Les Wilson Inner Circle Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Boca Raton, FL Posts: 3,014	Re: Getting a video camera This looks like a good deal: http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/private-...118-hours.html

September 22nd, 2011, 07:36 PM	#30
Don Bloom Inner Circle Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 6,609	Re: Getting a video camera The soon to be released ag-ac130 is actually the next step up from the hmc150. It's price is under $4000 and has many improvements over the150. Too bad it's not out yet. I've been looking at the Canon xf100 also but The thing that I really don't care for is the 10x lens. I still shoot with PD170s and there are times Evev the 12x isn't long enough for me. I'm going to wait until the 130 Comes out too make a decision. __________________ What do I know? I'm just a video-O-grafer. Don