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Old February 2nd, 2013, 12:51 PM   #1
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Gh3 for Weddings...30fps or 60fps?

I know you and most others here are familiar with the 180 degree rule. To maintain the look of film, we must therefore "lock" our SS to double the FPS. For darker shots, ISO is arguably only "acceptable" up to about 3200 for most. Most of my shooting is at night (wedding receptions) and I really can't control the light. Most lens for my type of work aren't going to get much better than F1.4.
This means, I really don't have too much control over my exposure for nighttime wedding receptions! (I have limited F Stop. Can't control the light, have to lock my SS).

With that understanding,I'm wonding if it would be more beneificial for me to shoot at 30 fps rather than 60fps. At least at 30 fps, I can double the amount of light I get with the SS set according to the 180 degree rule, right? What would be/is the benefit of shooting 60 fps if most of your footage is at night?
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Old February 2nd, 2013, 03:52 PM   #2
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Re: Gh3 for Weddings...30fps or 60fps?

Shooting 30 or 60, or in my case 25 or 50fps doesn't result in more light sensitivity, I would have the shutter in both cases at 1/50th. 50fps mainly has the advantage that it slows down much better and motion in general will be smoother especially when panning.
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Old February 2nd, 2013, 06:30 PM   #3
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Re: Gh3 for Weddings...30fps or 60fps?

Okay, but by maintaining the same shutter speed for 50 fps as you do for 25 means you aren't following the 180 rule. That same would be true if I shot at 1/60th for both 30 and60 fps.
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Old February 2nd, 2013, 06:55 PM   #4
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Re: Gh3 for Weddings...30fps or 60fps?

Actually you get the look of film at 24p. 60p looks like video at 1/120th or 1/60th. In 24p, setting the shutter at 1/50 is the closest the GH3 can get to 180 in film which would be 1/48. 1/40th can work, or in a pinch 1/30th can work but large motion gets blurry. 30p can have a film look as long as you use shutter speeds slower than 1/60th which gives the video look.
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Old February 3rd, 2013, 03:03 AM   #5
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Re: Gh3 for Weddings...30fps or 60fps?

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Okay, but by maintaining the same shutter speed for 50 fps as you do for 25 means you aren't following the 180 rule.
You have a camera that can do 24, 30 and 60fps, why don't you shoot one scene with moving objects at the 3 framerates but apply the same shutter you"d use at 24fps, or 30fps to see what result that gives? In that case you don't loose any lowlight capability but you can judge on a big screen if it's worth following the 180 rule. It's always best to experiment and see for yourself instead of following any rule.
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Old February 3rd, 2013, 11:17 AM   #6
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Re: Gh3 for Weddings...30fps or 60fps?

That "180 degree" rule was not a rule. It was what the camera had (and what you got!) when the shutter was a rotating disk with half of the disk "cut out" to allow the frame of film in the gate to be exposed. Later variable angle rotating disk shutters had a way of reducing that "half the disk cutout" to give faster shutter speeds.

We no longer have mechanical rotating disk shutters and while a few cameras still equate a shutter speed to a "shutter angle" for those who still want to use that as a "frame of reference", most of our consumer and prosumer grade gear does not.

24fps does not make a "film look", it may contribute some because we have become used to the motion blur the rotating disk shutter gave us at 1/48th second, our GH2 and GH3s (as well as the Canon's with stock firmware) don't have 1/48th but 1/50th is so close as to be almost identical. Even 1/60th (for those of us in NTSC areas when working in artificial light) is close enough for motion blur.

The wedding guys may or may not care about "film look" but frame rate by itself does not achieve that. Many other factors like lighting, composition, appropriate lens choice, set design and more go into achieving the film look. I don't do weddings or event work but if I did my choice of frame rate would be 30fps, 60fps in situations where I wanted slow motion, and not worry about it.

24fps and shutter angle rules are achaic "holdovers" from film days, and in Hollywood that is changing with the moves to 60p and higher for some future productions. The goal is to totally get away from "flicker" effect and make images and motion sharper and smoother. The "cinematic look" is changing.
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Old February 3rd, 2013, 03:03 PM   #7
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Re: Gh3 for Weddings...30fps or 60fps?

Bruce,
Thanks for your feedback. Hoping you could elaborate on why you would choose 30fps for weddings over 60?
Thanks!
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Old February 3rd, 2013, 05:02 PM   #8
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Re: Gh3 for Weddings...30fps or 60fps?

While lighting and image contrast do contribute to the "film look" greatly, I have to disagree about how important the frame rate is. The frame rate contributes to the important balance between fantasy and reality in our product. 24f was chosen as the compromise between creating a realistic sense of motion, audio fidelity and economy of film stock. A lower film rate starts to look unreal, a higher film rate looks closer to reality. When sound was introduced to film, 30 fps was considered but rejected due to the cost of raw stock. Television was standardized with frame rates that corresponded with the electrical systems of the countries they were in hence 60i or 50i. The same excellent lighting in 60p looks the same as 24p until somebody moves then the effects are very different. 60p is perceptually closer to reality than 24p, a live sporting event looks great in 60p as it gives the feel of actually witnessing the event in person. A movie action scene looks more exciting in 24p as the motion blur contributes to the impression of speed. Reverse those examples and they will not be as successful.

A wedding is frequently a place where the videographer has little control over the look and lighting of the settings. You shoot what you get, intelligently. Choosing 24p for your wedding shoot is an aesthetic decision that can have side benefits such as: Giving the finished production a socially accepted "classy" look; giving the cameraperson more options to shoot in low light without straying from look of the whole production; saving space on your recording media. If you are truly committed to the film look and set your camera to cinema-like shutter speeds, then 60p is a waste of recording space as all you will get are duplicate frames.
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Old February 3rd, 2013, 10:28 PM   #9
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Re: Gh3 for Weddings...30fps or 60fps?

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Originally Posted by Ian Atkins View Post
What would be/is the benefit of shooting 60 fps if most of your footage is at night?
Very smooth slow motion, if you have enough light; but i rarely shoot slow motion indoors, so my 90% of shooting is 30p
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Old February 4th, 2013, 09:53 AM   #10
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Re: Gh3 for Weddings...30fps or 60fps?

24p on the web never looks like film to me. Motion is too choppy. My rule is if its going to blu ray, I shoot 24p or 60i, if its a web video, 30p. I only use 60p if I think I may slow it down in post.
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Old February 4th, 2013, 10:34 AM   #11
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Re: Gh3 for Weddings...30fps or 60fps?

I don't shoot a lot of weddings, but do shoot in dim light quite a bit... in such situations, I always opt for 30p or 24p. Why? The simple fact that shooting at 1/60 shutter vs. 1/120 shutter means your shutter is open for half the time, letting in half the light, meaning you lose a stop of sensitivity.

For times of extreme luminot-sity, provided motion is at a minimum, I won't hesitate to kick the shutter open even longer... 1/25 or 1/30 of a second. Not ideal, sure, but better than a noisy image, IMO.
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