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-   -   72 Mbps (ALL-Intra) or 50 Mbps (IPB) (http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/panasonic-lumix-g-gf-gh-gx-series/520139-72-mbps-all-intra-50-mbps-ipb.html)

Alex Anderson November 18th, 2013 05:02 PM

72 Mbps (ALL-Intra) or 50 Mbps (IPB)
 
72 Mbps (ALL-Intra) or 50 Mbps (IPB)? which one makes the highest quality, better looking video?

Noa Put November 18th, 2013 05:16 PM

Re: 72 Mbps (ALL-Intra) or 50 Mbps (IPB)
 
50 Mbps (IPB) does, allthough I have not tested it side by side there are many reports of users who did to find out 72mbs has more noise in it.

Alex Anderson November 18th, 2013 05:28 PM

Re: 72 Mbps (ALL-Intra) or 50 Mbps (IPB)
 
thanx, I now recall hearing that same info. If I get a gh3, I would do some tests to see. I was just curious. I am now thinking maybe a BMPCC with ProRes and raw.

Noa Put November 18th, 2013 05:47 PM

Re: 72 Mbps (ALL-Intra) or 50 Mbps (IPB)
 
ah yeah right, you are that guy that can't make up his mind :)

The bmc pocket cam is a different camera compared to the gh3, as I see it it is not a camera to produce weddings, not if you are a solo shooter, imagine shooting 20 minutes of raw video on a 64gb card or shooting prores and have to spend a lot of time getting the right color in post (most pocket videos in prores I have seen so far have a weird color), your batteries will die within an hour (the gh3 original battery goes on for hours) and don't even think on changing settings on the fly because it's all menu driven on the lcd screen, from the many out of focus shots I have seen in pocket videos setting accurate focus seems to be tricky as well, you could attach a loupe to the screen but then you can't change any settings anymore without removing the loupe each time and you can't check your audio levels. That's a camera for people that have time to set up a shot and that have time to handle the footage in post. For a quick turnaround guy like me that camera would be useless, but I"d like to use it for my personal projects, only I need to do some other investments first that actually make me money, maybe in a year or so when some update firmwares have ironed out all issues and when stock is freely available. :)

Phil Goetz November 19th, 2013 09:19 PM

Re: 72 Mbps (ALL-Intra) or 50 Mbps (IPB)
 
50. Get a GH3. I tried to put the 12-35 on a BMPCC and it wouldn't go. All MFT BMPCC are not the same. Never had a problem with an MFT lens on a GH3... or GH2 for that matter...

Alex Anderson November 19th, 2013 10:46 PM

Re: 72 Mbps (ALL-Intra) or 50 Mbps (IPB)
 
I hear ya.

William Hohauser November 20th, 2013 08:09 AM

Re: 72 Mbps (ALL-Intra) or 50 Mbps (IPB)
 
72 doesn't look better in my opinion, stick with 50. You will get outstanding quality from the GH3 in a convenient package. Not a perfect package but a more usable one then the BMPCC in many situations. Not to knock the BMPCC as an image gathering device, it's great in it's way but the Blackmagic people seem to have something against closed viewfinders and that is a really necessary option for many shooting situations. If you are worried about quality you could try an external HDMI recorder on the GH3 but be prepared for the camera to become more difficult to use, like the BMPCC.

Alex Anderson November 20th, 2013 02:27 PM

Re: 72 Mbps (ALL-Intra) or 50 Mbps (IPB)
 
Thank you William. I appreciate your input.

Alex

Alex Anderson November 20th, 2013 02:29 PM

Re: 72 Mbps (ALL-Intra) or 50 Mbps (IPB)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Phil Goetz (Post 1821407)
50. Get a GH3. I tried to put the 12-35 on a BMPCC and it wouldn't go. All MFT BMPCC are not the same. Never had a problem with an MFT lens on a GH3... or GH2 for that matter...

Phil, what wouldn't go with that lens on the Pocket? And how do you mean the cameras are all different?

Bill Bruner November 20th, 2013 05:13 PM

Re: 72 Mbps (ALL-Intra) or 50 Mbps (IPB)
 
My vote is for 50mbps also.

Alex - I have both cameras and I use them for different things. I carry the GH3 around in the car with me every day because I might see a still or a motion image I want to shoot.

I have only had the BMPCC for a few weeks, but I leave it at home unless I have a plan for going out to shoot with it.

It's a fantastic camera, but it definitely takes more planning to get a good shot (e.g., ND filters, an LCD hood or loupe, etc).

Don't need any of that stuff with the GH3.

That said, when I want ultimate video quality, I break out the Blackmagic, because it gives me better, more gradeable motion images, period.

Alex Anderson November 30th, 2013 09:29 AM

Re: 72 Mbps (ALL-Intra) or 50 Mbps (IPB)
 
thanks to everyone posting. Can anyone explain exactly why the 50 seems to be the popular choice than the 72? Technical reasons? My first thought was the 72 was going to be better with the higher bitrate and the single frames for editing.

Noa Put November 30th, 2013 09:32 AM

Re: 72 Mbps (ALL-Intra) or 50 Mbps (IPB)
 
72mbs ai has more noise in the footage compared to 50mbs ipb.

Alex Anderson November 30th, 2013 10:05 AM

Re: 72 Mbps (ALL-Intra) or 50 Mbps (IPB)
 
Thank you Noa, A good reason.

Noa Put November 30th, 2013 10:27 AM

Re: 72 Mbps (ALL-Intra) or 50 Mbps (IPB)
 
Still no camera purchased? Christmas is coming and I know what would look nice onder that tree :)

Alex Anderson November 30th, 2013 10:50 AM

Re: 72 Mbps (ALL-Intra) or 50 Mbps (IPB)
 
you crack me up. I unfortunately have a low money situation and I need to sell my EOS M system ($500 or reasonable offer) before having two cameras sitting here. I see Amazon and B&H now have the GH3 for $900. :-) Something else to consider is a Panasonic press release for a new 4K sensor. They claim to be the lowest noise sensor in the world. And there are rumors of that being in a GH4. But we have to wait and the GH3 is now.

Nigel Barker November 30th, 2013 11:03 AM

Re: 72 Mbps (ALL-Intra) or 50 Mbps (IPB)
 
Alex, don't you know that the Sony RX10 is the new hot camera? There are some good reports and sample videos from users over on Sony - General / Other

Alex Anderson November 30th, 2013 11:11 AM

Re: 72 Mbps (ALL-Intra) or 50 Mbps (IPB)
 
Nigel, I was just reading about it this morning. Interesting. HDMI uncompressed 8 bit 422 is good for ext recording. Also, the Carl Zeiss 24-200mm f/2.8 Lens (35mm Eq) is nice.

Noa Put November 30th, 2013 11:13 AM

Re: 72 Mbps (ALL-Intra) or 50 Mbps (IPB)
 
Eventhough it's still a rumor I don't expect it to be in the 1k range like the gh3 but more around 3k, also don't think it will be the gh3 successor but a start of new line of 4k camera's. But back to reality, I can join your club as well now as I today sold my sony nex-ea50 including lenses, wasn't planning to do so but was contacted by someone who was going to buy a new ea50 and I offered mine :) I still think it was a great camera but it proved to be too large to carry around all day at a wedding and was used less and less the past months so I gave it up. So, that makes 2 of us looking for a general small workhorse. :)

Alex Anderson November 30th, 2013 11:37 AM

Re: 72 Mbps (ALL-Intra) or 50 Mbps (IPB)
 
I agree, a new 4k cam to compete with the new BM 4k soon to be released.

Nigel Barker December 1st, 2013 09:11 AM

Re: 72 Mbps (ALL-Intra) or 50 Mbps (IPB)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Alex Anderson (Post 1822725)
Nigel, I was just reading about it this morning. Interesting. HDMI uncompressed 8 bit 422 is good for ext recording. Also, the Carl Zeiss 24-200mm f/2.8 Lens (35mm Eq) is nice.

It looks like with Sony's "Clear Image Zoom" that we can regard that as a 24-400mm f/2.8 Lens
CIZ is not the same as the 2X crop mode of the MFT cameras that uses the central 1920x1080 portion of the sensor but nor is it just a digital zoom. Sony claim some clever algorithm is used & the results certainly look extremely good.

Noa Put December 1st, 2013 09:17 AM

Re: 72 Mbps (ALL-Intra) or 50 Mbps (IPB)
 
I was also surprised how sharp Sony's "Clear Image Zoom" looks, you do seem some slight resolution loss but not on the same level like the digital zoom on the nex-ea50, I have been using the etc mode on the panasonic g6 more then once with usable footage, the way it looks now that will apply to the rx10 as well.

Leon Kolenda January 15th, 2014 12:53 AM

Re: 72 Mbps (ALL-Intra) or 50 Mbps (IPB)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Noa Put (Post 1822726)
Eventhough it's still a rumor I don't expect it to be in the 1k range like the gh3 but more around 3k, also don't think it will be the gh3 successor but a start of new line of 4k camera's. But back to reality, I can join your club as well now as I today sold my sony nex-ea50 including lenses, wasn't planning to do so but was contacted by someone who was going to buy a new ea50 and I offered mine :) I still think it was a great camera but it proved to be too large to carry around all day at a wedding and was used less and less the past months so I gave it up. So, that makes 2 of us looking for a general small workhorse. :)

I'm needing to sell a Sony VG-20 and a 18-200 mm lens. Where is the best place to sell gear I tried, craigs list for local, but I live in a beach town.

Noa Put January 15th, 2014 03:16 AM

Re: 72 Mbps (ALL-Intra) or 50 Mbps (IPB)
 
Don't ask me, I live on the other side of the globe :) Isn't there a category on this site where you can sell your gear?

Cees van Kempen January 15th, 2014 07:01 AM

Re: 72 Mbps (ALL-Intra) or 50 Mbps (IPB)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Alex Anderson (Post 1822710)
thanks to everyone posting. Can anyone explain exactly why the 50 seems to be the popular choice than the 72? Technical reasons? My first thought was the 72 was going to be better with the higher bitrate and the single frames for editing.

72 Mb/s is an Intra-Frame codec, meaning all the information of a specific frame is stored in the frame itself. 50 Mb/s is a Inter-Frame codec, meaning that a group of frames is sharing information. This is a more complex structure, requiring more powerful software to deal with it on your computer. But it is more efficient, delivers higher quality at lower bit rates.

50 Mb/s is considered 'broadcast approved'. But this is only for Inter-Frame or LongGOP codecs. For Intra-Frame codecs I believe you can't go below 100 Mb/s for broadcast approval. So the 50Mb/s codec would fit, the 72 Mb/s would not. (Of course there are also other requirements to get a camera broadcast approved. Just making clear that the numbers 50 and 72 don't tell the whole story.)

Noa Put January 15th, 2014 08:15 AM

Re: 72 Mbps (ALL-Intra) or 50 Mbps (IPB)
 
That's not the main reason why users choose 50mb ipb over 72mb all intra, the 72mb all intra is supposed to be more noisier on the gh3 so how strange it might sound, it's a worse quality then the 50mb ipb codec, I haven't tested it but seen a few users reporting it.

Heri Rakotomalala January 15th, 2014 10:02 AM

Re: 72 Mbps (ALL-Intra) or 50 Mbps (IPB)
 
For 24p, I have tested both and 50Mbps looks much better

For 60p it's hard to say. For action scenes, I find 72 Mbps is better

Cees van Kempen January 15th, 2014 12:05 PM

Re: 72 Mbps (ALL-Intra) or 50 Mbps (IPB)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Noa Put (Post 1827903)
That's not the main reason why users choose 50mb ipb over 72mb all intra, the 72mb all intra is supposed to be more noisier on the gh3 so how strange it might sound, it's a worse quality then the 50mb ipb codec, I haven't tested it but seen a few users reporting it.

You are right. But it is noisier because it is a less efficient codec and that's just what I tried to explain.

Thomas Smet January 15th, 2014 01:02 PM

Re: 72 Mbps (ALL-Intra) or 50 Mbps (IPB)
 
The whole point of formats like H264 and mpeg2 is the motion prediction where certain parts of the frame that do not chnage can be shared between frames. This allows the total bitrate to be lower because 50mbps IPB can have the same quality as an I frame format with 100+Mbps.

The reason why 72mbps has more noise is because it is seriously bit starved. This is what happens with formats based on DCT compression. Think of jpeg images that have too much compression. They start to get a bit noisier. You really start to notice it when the frames are in motion.

On the hacked GH2 we would sometimes use I frame only recording and we would typically use around 200mbps. That is a pretty big difference in bitrate and it really made a difference. As cool as the 72mbps mode sounds it is really a bad implementation right now. Hopefully in the future the GH3 will get hacked so we can bump up the bitrate to at least 100mbps. Personally I would rather see 150-200mbps.

Noa Put January 15th, 2014 01:21 PM

Re: 72 Mbps (ALL-Intra) or 50 Mbps (IPB)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Cees van Kempen (Post 1827947)
that's just what I tried to explain.

I misread your comment and see now you where referring to the ipb codec as the more efficient one.

William Hohauser January 15th, 2014 04:23 PM

Re: 72 Mbps (ALL-Intra) or 50 Mbps (IPB)
 
While on paper it would seem that 72 would provide a better image in 24p (3Mbp per frame versus 2.08Mbp per frame), since 50 is adaptive compression, on a tripod set shot with moderate motion (an interview), the camera can actually record an image that is a virtual 3Mbp (or higher) per frame as more detail can be saved in the parts of the frame that are not changing without going over the recording limit of 50Mbps. In 60p the same probably applies, although I have not tested it. However, if you are shooting action or active hand held, 72 might end up being the better choice. It pays to test it out, a lot of compression artifacts are not visible to eye until the video is freeze framed or the viewer is very close to the screen.

Leon Kolenda March 8th, 2014 02:04 PM

Re: 72 Mbps (ALL-Intra) or 50 Mbps (IPB)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Nigel Barker (Post 1822723)
Alex, don't you know that the Sony RX10 is the new hot camera? There are some good reports and sample videos from users over on Sony - General / Other

Sony service sucks!!!, and the camera is AVCHD crap codec!

Noa Put March 8th, 2014 04:01 PM

Re: 72 Mbps (ALL-Intra) or 50 Mbps (IPB)
 
About 3 months ago you considered buying the camera and now suddenly you realize it has a crappy codec? :)

Leon Kolenda March 8th, 2014 07:28 PM

Re: 72 Mbps (ALL-Intra) or 50 Mbps (IPB)
 
I do have a right to change my mind NO? I overlooked the limited Mbps. I still like my GH3 and up coming GH4,

Noa Put March 9th, 2014 03:27 AM

Re: 72 Mbps (ALL-Intra) or 50 Mbps (IPB)
 
avchd does have limitations with lots of fine detail and movement where you can see the macroblocking and it has a limited color-space so it is important to start of right in camera which will give you a bit of room to colorcorrect but it is not a "crappy" codec, it's a very efficient one and being used by many that make a living from their camera's. Also not having a "crappy" codec doesn't automatically mean it's good, there are still issues like moire and aliasing that come into mind, even with efficient codecs. For it's low price the rx10 delivers a lot and like any camera in this low price range there is a limitation found somewhere but judging a camera by it's codec alone is somewhat shortsighted.

Leon Kolenda March 10th, 2014 02:56 AM

Re: 72 Mbps (ALL-Intra) or 50 Mbps (IPB)
 
Never said I judged it by it's codec alone. Don't like Sony, there service absolutely stinks! I don't care what you think about my opinion! I have been there and done that with them and they are doing it again with the RX10, Are they innovative absolutely! Do they have very good quality control, depends which division,

There are many complaints already on the RX10 with excessive audio hiss, and camera lock ups,
The concept of the RX10 is pretty nice, but I hope Panasonic makes something along this line of camera.
Hey Noa, don't knock my opinions with mockery, no reason for that, discussing them is fine. You have your opinions just like I have mine.

On a more positive note! :) B&H Video is taking pre-orders for the GH4 4K camera $1,699.00!

Noa Put March 10th, 2014 03:28 AM

Re: 72 Mbps (ALL-Intra) or 50 Mbps (IPB)
 
Quote:

There are many complaints already on the RX10 with excessive audio hiss, and camera lock ups,
Where did you read that? Can you provide any links? I own a rx10 and the internal audio is for a dslr remarkably good, not the same quality as on my nex-ea50 but miles better then my gh3 internal mike, when I connect a mike through a xlr box it's also very clean but if there is complete silence I do hear the camera adjusting which creates more background noise, not sure if that is a setting but it's not what you refer to as excessive audio hiss.

Also about lockups, that's new to me too.

Quote:

Hey Noa, don't knock my opinions with mockery, no reason for that, discussing them is fine. You have your opinions just like I have mine.
I was discussing it by saying I didn't agree with that generalizing comment.

Mark Rosenzweig March 11th, 2014 07:07 PM

Re: 72 Mbps (ALL-Intra) or 50 Mbps (IPB)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Leon Kolenda (Post 1836264)
There are many complaints already on the RX10 with excessive audio hiss, and camera lock ups,

Please provide us the source of this important information.

William Hohauser March 12th, 2014 08:13 AM

Re: 72 Mbps (ALL-Intra) or 50 Mbps (IPB)
 
Sony NXCAM / AVCHD Camera Systems Forum at DV Info Net

Here is the appropriate forum to discuss the issues of the Sony RX10. There doesn't seem to be a dedicated group for this camera so petition the moderators of this site to add one. If anyone has something add regarding the use of this camera with the Panasonic GH series let's continue talking here.

Leon Kolenda March 15th, 2014 01:02 PM

Re: 72 Mbps (ALL-Intra) or 50 Mbps (IPB)
 
RX10 returns/exchanges: Sony Cyber-shot Talk Forum: Digital Photography Review

No, I think that there is a QA problem now: Sony Cyber-shot Talk Forum: Digital Photography Review


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