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Old February 13th, 2014, 04:53 AM   #76
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Re: Press Release: Panasonic Announces 4K Mirrorless DMC-GH4

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Heath View Post
The point I was trying to make is that whether or not there's burn in (and I'm quite happy to go along with Chris that it's largely something of the past) then what's the problem in *a camera viewfinder*? OK, if it did burn in a bit, so what? Better that than having a negative effect on ability.

Which leads towards the conclusion that the issue has nothing to do with burn in. A] It's not likely in the first place. B] So what if it did?
Yes, I took it one step further. A competent designer would conclude B). After concluding that and quality testing still failed the part due to burn in, then the part isn't fit for purpose. Conclusions left to the reader....
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Old February 13th, 2014, 05:49 AM   #77
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Re: Press Release: Panasonic Announces 4K Mirrorless DMC-GH4

The fact that the screen info disappears after a few seconds and that you can't change that behavior if you wanted is pain for many users for sure and a weird functionality decision by Panasonic, I"m sure a simple firmware update could have fixed this. I don't find it much of an issue as I prefer a clean screen while recording and I can get the screen info back when needed but I can imagine that for many others, depending on what type of monitoring you do (like audiolevels) it can be a critical flaw.

Now for the reason why there are more then one reason found back so it's some guessing what the real reason was, one reason I found back was: "The display loses info in order to save battery power." and teh second reason I found back was: "Since OLED TV is made from organic LED material there may be burn in issues, though not as bad as the first plasma displays."

Has it been confirmed that the gh4 has the same problem?
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Old February 13th, 2014, 09:03 AM   #78
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Re: Press Release: Panasonic Announces 4K Mirrorless DMC-GH4

Overall the specs of GH4 is impressive.I wish if there is 2 versions of this camera.
One with 4K capable @ the already announced price and a stripped down version
with 1080p only with an upgrade option to 4K to future proof @ a lesser price
would have attracted many. This is the marketing strategy adopted in Arri Amira
though it is 2K only.

Rajiv
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Old February 13th, 2014, 12:17 PM   #79
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Re: Press Release: Panasonic Announces 4K Mirrorless DMC-GH4

Hi

Quote:
Originally Posted by Noa Put View Post
The fact that the screen info disappears after a few seconds and that you can't change that behavior if you wanted is pain for many users for sure and a weird functionality decision by Panasonic, I"m sure a simple firmware update could have fixed this. I don't find it much of an issue as I prefer a clean screen while recording and I can get the screen info back when needed but I can imagine that for many others, depending on what type of monitoring you do (like audiolevels) it can be a critical flaw.

Now for the reason why there are more then one reason found back so it's some guessing what the real reason was, one reason I found back was: "The display loses info in order to save battery power." and teh second reason I found back was: "Since OLED TV is made from organic LED material there may be burn in issues, though not as bad as the first plasma displays."

Has it been confirmed that the gh4 has the same problem?
Sort of related to burn in, OLED doesn't age too well. The main problem is with the Blue pixels, these age much faster than green or red, and is often why they are bigger, to try and balance this out.

Usually with non-critical devices the OLED screen is biased towards blue, then as blue ages and becomes dimmer the screen transitions towards being yellow. Starting it much more blue, it takes longer before this becomes an unpleasant yellowing. As people we are conditioned mainly by marketing that a bluer white is a whiter white, so we don't object to the blue bias nearly as much as we do the yellow.

With something much more colour critical like a camera you can't really do this bias as much, so the next option is to just ensure the screen isn't on for long periods.

Incidentally this is the main problem with OLED TVs and getting their lifespan up to an expected level. I'd rather stick with LCD.

Things improve all the time so hopefully they have lifted this restriction on the GH4.

Regards

Phil
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Old February 13th, 2014, 12:21 PM   #80
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Re: Press Release: Panasonic Announces 4K Mirrorless DMC-GH4

Phil, I think they've largely overcome that problem with OLEDs. It was a problem a couple of years ago, but not so much today. Sony has been using them for a couple of years and I haven't read a single report of premature OLED wear.

Aside from that, the amount of wear an OLED would get in a camera wouldn't be nearly the amount that an OLED TV would see. So I doubt this is much of an issue.
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Old February 16th, 2014, 07:50 AM   #81
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Re: Press Release: Panasonic Announces 4K Mirrorless DMC-GH4

Very interesting report from Eduardo Angel, who is shooting with a preproduction copy of the Panasonic GH4 (firmware version 0.3): 7 things we discovered after shooting 4K with the GH4. You won't like #4. Eduardo Angel

Still planning to buy one, but those dadgummed microP2 cards are going to be expensive.
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Old February 16th, 2014, 09:06 AM   #82
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Re: Press Release: Panasonic Announces 4K Mirrorless DMC-GH4

You 'think' they have fixed the problems. What makes you think that?

Two of the biggest problems with OLED displays remain, one is their life-span as blue OLED pixels age much faster causing a colour shift. Second is 'burn in' (related to the short life-span) on the display which hasn't been solved either, there are many complaints of burn-in on mobile devices which have displays used much less than TVs! Just Google "AMOLED burn in" then view 'Images'.

Do you have any evidence Ken that OLED issues have been resolved?

Regards

Phil
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Old February 16th, 2014, 09:37 AM   #83
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Re: Press Release: Panasonic Announces 4K Mirrorless DMC-GH4

Agreed. I think this is the reason my Samsung Galaxy S4's screen, pentile AMOLED, has noticeable yellow cast after a year of moderate use (screen on and off during daytime standby and usage and completely off 6-8 hours every day at night). I've also seen a similar problem with the rear OLED screen on my 3 years old Sony Cybershot DSC-TX100V. Same problem with the king of cell phone stills shooter, the Nokia 808 Pureview as well.
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Old February 16th, 2014, 12:38 PM   #84
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Re: Press Release: Panasonic Announces 4K Mirrorless DMC-GH4

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Originally Posted by Phil Lee View Post
You 'think' they have fixed the problems. What makes you think that?

Two of the biggest problems with OLED displays remain, one is their life-span as blue OLED pixels age much faster causing a colour shift. Second is 'burn in' (related to the short life-span) on the display which hasn't been solved either, there are many complaints of burn-in on mobile devices which have displays used much less than TVs! Just Google "AMOLED burn in" then view 'Images'.

Do you have any evidence Ken that OLED issues have been resolved?

Regards

Phil
My own experience with Samsung and Sony OLEDs on mobile devices as well as cameras and the overwhelming anecdotal reports Phil. Also keep in mind that mobile device usage will be far far higher than OLED camera use and therefore 'wear' will be considerably less. These were issues that were more common earlier. Of course this hasn't impacted the cost of producing OLEDs, as they still remain expensive and near prohibitive in large screen displays because of the high rejection rate during production.

But the problems you mention are just not prevalent any longer. Of course you can always read about people complaining about burn-in on many display types. Did you know there are even reports of 'burn-in' on LCD/LEDs? The point is they are few and far between. To this day, many people confuse burn-in (permanent) with image retention (IR...temporary).
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Old February 16th, 2014, 01:47 PM   #85
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Re: Press Release: Panasonic Announces 4K Mirrorless DMC-GH4

Ken, facts are Panasonic have on previous cameras added a short time out to the OLED display to remove icons, that was never addressed by a firmware update despite calls for it to be. We can only conclude therefore it was by design to prevent burn-in. Your own experience is also anecdotal of course.

Facts are OLED displays have a short lifespan and burn-in issues and nothing has changed in the technology recently, and these issues are industry knowledge.

The GH3 manual has this information:

Quote:
Monitor/viewfinder of this unit adopts OLED. Screen burn-in may occur on the screen/
viewfinder when a same image is displayed for a long period of time, but it does not affect the
recorded images.
The thread here discussed a few theories as to why the short time out might exist based on shared knowledge about OLED displays. No one knows the real reason why the short time outs exist, and most likely a combination of all factors discussed. We also don't know if the same time-outs exist on the GH4 yet. It would have ideal if the GH4 came with a separate standard LCD display to show setting information, or they just used a TFT LCD display rather than OLED then burn-in problems are avoided.

As for time usage of the display, well that depends on the individual. If the camera is used for video recording by a enthusiast or used professionally or semi-professionally, the display may be in use for many hours a day, easily exceeding that of a typical mobile phone, and burn in of on-screen icons is a possibility if they remained on screen all the time.

Regards

Phil
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Old February 16th, 2014, 02:06 PM   #86
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Re: Press Release: Panasonic Announces 4K Mirrorless DMC-GH4

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Originally Posted by Phil Lee View Post
Ken, facts are Panasonic have on previous cameras added a short time out to the OLED display to remove icons, that was never addressed by a firmware update despite calls for it to be. We can only conclude therefore it was by design to prevent burn-in.
We can? There are other possibilities Phil, there really are. If burn-in is the reason, why is that other manufacturers are not imposing these time limits while using OLED displays? Are the other guys using better tech OLEDs that aren't as susceptible? Is Panasonic using older tech in these OLEDs? Burn in and limited life span was an issue in the past, but as can be seen from actual production OLED TVs, it is not. In fact, companies like Samsung & LG are promising long life from their OLED TVs. I don't recall the number of hours, but I believe they were comparable to plasma TVs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil Lee View Post
Facts are OLED displays have a short lifespan and burn-in issues and nothing has changed in the technology recently, and these issues are industry knowledge.
Again, I believe you are using information that was true in the past. Samsung & LG have proved otherwise.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil Lee View Post
The thread here discussed a few theories as to why the short time out might exist based on shared knowledge about OLED displays. No one knows the real reason why the short time outs exist, and most likely a combination of all factors discussed. We also don't know if the same time-outs exist on the GH4 yet. It would have ideal if the GH4 came with a separate standard LCD display to show setting information, or they just used a TFT LCD display rather than OLED then burn-in problems are avoided.
And that's the truth. We don't know if Panasonic will have that time out in the GH4. We don't know the real reason for why it existed or may still exist. If you've worked with OLED VFs as opposed to the traditional LCDs, you'd see why OLEDs are much better...at least IMO. Better color, less lag etc.
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Old February 16th, 2014, 08:04 PM   #87
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Re: Press Release: Panasonic Announces 4K Mirrorless DMC-GH4

Panasonic did make the right move by externalizing the audio meters, but requiring an XLR 12v to use it defeats it's purpose. A battery grip with audio meters, TC display and XLRs powered by another battery in the grip would be the solution. Also, add a full sized HDMI to that and it'd be a way better alternative to the clunky XLR power locked expansion.
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Old February 17th, 2014, 11:01 AM   #88
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Re: Press Release: Panasonic Announces 4K Mirrorless DMC-GH4

^^^ Yes, "IF" 48V phantom power is required for one or both microphones running into the XLRs I would imagine it will eat the internal battery in NO time, requiring that module to be pulled off and on frequently. I kept looking for a place where it would take another battery like a grip would.

You really would be required to have one or more of those small phantom powering modules with 9 volt batteries, and the rechargeable lithium polymer batteries even at that. Alkaline 9Vs go really quick themselves for that purpose, if using the GH4 at 1080P in event work. If you're planning short production takes either at 1080P or 4K then not as much of a problem. I encountered this with alkalines in a Juiced Link mixer with only one mic being supplied, with its meters and all, first time I shot an event with the GH3.
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Old February 20th, 2014, 06:32 PM   #89
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Re: Press Release: Panasonic Announces 4K Mirrorless DMC-GH4

Just reading up B&H's description of the 4K recording modes, and it looks like there's no pixel binning in 4K mode, which means you'll have a slight crop compared to 1080 mode. Will be interesting to see how the image is de-bayered in-camera.
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Old February 20th, 2014, 10:55 PM   #90
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Re: Press Release: Panasonic Announces 4K Mirrorless DMC-GH4

Has anyone else seen an available date yet?

For the first time B&H is listing 'End of April 2014'.
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