Press Release: Panasonic Announces 4K Mirrorless DMC-GH4

[Anthony Lelli]

Originally Posted by Les Wilson

Anyone who's been in product R&D knows that a product feature set is defined and refined using input from engineering, finance and marketing. Product lines are intentionally defined and evolved with parameters set by the same folks. It shows up in a number of ways.

Look at the large sensor market in terms of CODEC. If you want something better than AVCHD under $4k, you have to suffer using a DSLR. Look at Sony's line it terms of builtin ND filters.

Manufacturers control their product lines and nowadays have to trade off the impacts of features across DSLR, 3-chip and large sensor product lines. Feature sets are also tweaked under development where possible as competitors announce products. Ultimately, there is a spreadsheet with voodoo numbers that predict sales based on features, market availability and time in market.

I doubt Canon put a junky VF that doesn't articulate in the C100 because the technology wasn't there. Ditto the LCD everyone complains about. Those smack of cost decisions. It will be interesting to see who is the first to cross the $4K barrier with a large sensor camcorder that has a better CODEC than AVCHD. If ever. That would encroach on the 3-chip product sales which are impacted by power zoom lenses for large sensor products. It get complicated fast and I think each company has their own guidelines they are using to define feature sets.

your examples are all correct, but I said something else. let's see if I can make it easier (English is my third language, I'll do the best I can ... please be patient). Example: take that articulating viewfinder. Ok it doesn't articulate and that would be fine. but if the same viewfinder was born articulating and then made fixed with 3 screws then the story would be different. Features cost money and it's fine if the cost increases. But limiting a product intentionally is disgusting.
why they don't do that with stills anymore? Because the laughs of the users forced them to stop several years ago. But they do it big time with the prosumer video people who apparently are happy with it. judging by the response I see in here LOL

[Anthony Lelli]

talking 'bout the 5-7K segment of video cameras : let's say that they (all) got caught with the pants down by the mistake the guys with Nikon's made with the D90. And what do they do to fix it? they make the NX3
really?

[Les Wilson]

Originally Posted by Anthony Lelli

... take that articulating viewfinder. Ok it doesn't articulate and that would be fine. but if the same viewfinder was born articulating and then made fixed with 3 screws then the story would be different. Features cost money and it's fine if the cost increases. But limiting a product intentionally is disgusting....But they do it big time with the prosumer video people who apparently are happy with it. judging by the response I see in here LOL

Is this the case with the C100 or just a theoretical? I think what consumers call crippling is what those more aware understand is product development and positioning within a product line, company and market segment.

Originally Posted by Anthony Lelli

talking 'bout the 5-7K segment of video cameras : let's say that they (all) got caught with the pants down by the mistake the guys with Nikon's made with the D90. And what do they do to fix it? they make the NX3
really?

Can you explain this?

[Ron Evans]

My take on the NX3 compared to the NX5U which is now 4 years old I think. I got mine 4 years this November I think.
Things that are new and were not available 4 years ago.
AVCHD 2.0
New sensors 1920x1080
NFC wireless control and Android App

Things missing from NX3 that are on the NX5U
HD/SDI
Timecode interface
Smooth gain switching
Smooth power zoom ramping
FMU128

It is $1000 less with things missing and 4 years more development.

Clearly positioning relative to the PMW 160 that likely has exactly the same sensors !!! Priced less than the FDR-AX1 or PXW-Z100 which have 4K and this summer will also have AVCHD 2.0 PXW-Z100 also has the wireless APP.

Ron Evans

[Anthony Lelli]

Originally Posted by Les Wilson

Is this the case with the C100 or just a theoretical? I think what consumers call crippling is what those more aware understand is product development and positioning within a product line, company and market segment.



Can you explain this?

nah. limiting intentionally a sensor already good is disgusting, unethical, makes me sick in the stomach. Now you were saying about positioning and marketing? what was that? Still disgusting and unethical. You can call it how you like but it's still disgusting.

about the NX3 and a cell phone? do I need to explain? Don't think so.

our friends pro still photographers enjoy the same cameras that amateurs and prosumers use. Same cameras, and within the models the difference is in features, no intentional limitations like I see with the video. With video every inch better get stratospheric prices, and they play with the end images (and use and destination) : low light (crucial and they know it) and definition. But this goldmine is about to end. Either they do what the stills departments do or they are out: people will start using cell phones, pocket and DSLRs or mirrorless like the GH2/3/4 that produce 1,000 times better than the NX3 (the last idiotic mini-sensors of a decade ago).

[Anthony Lelli]

Originally Posted by Ron Evans

My take on the NX3 compared to the NX5U which is now 4 years old I think. I got mine 4 years this November I think.
Things that are new and were not available 4 years ago.
AVCHD 2.0
New sensors 1920x1080
NFC wireless control and Android App

Things missing from NX3 that are on the NX5U
HD/SDI
Timecode interface
Smooth gain switching
Smooth power zoom ramping
FMU128

It is $1000 less with things missing and 4 years more development.

Clearly positioning relative to the PMW 160 that likely has exactly the same sensors !!! Priced less than the FDR-AX1 or PXW-Z100 which have 4K and this summer will also have AVCHD 2.0 PXW-Z100 also has the wireless APP.

Ron Evans

the NX3 got the leds. about the pictures? same thing. it takes 2-3 years to finalize a product in Japan. They have stocks to sell. And they are a little behind or don't see what's going on and never left the room for 2 years, or they have stocks to sell (most likely) : bottom line it's the last expensive limited product obsolete and absurd given the standards that every kid post on youtube now. Not even close to that quality. How much that ancient technology goes for?

[James Hobert]

Quick questions for those more knowledgable than me:

1) What is the max ISO in VIDEO mode on the GH4? I know the GH3 was 6400 but I don't see anything about limits on this one.

2) What is the easiest way to get a slow, steady zoom on a camera like this? Are there certain zoom lenses that are easier than others to do this? Obviously I'm sure practice helps but it's really hard to go from full wide to full telephoto on my 12-35 f/2.8 without it jerking a little bit at some point.

3) With the interface unit, I know you can't output 10 bit 4:2:2 and record in camera at the same time. So using the SDI output (not the HDMI which I know does output 8bit 4:2:2), can you drop it down to say 10 bit 4:2:0 or 8 bit 4:2:2 somehow and then still record internally?

Thanks!

[Anthony Lelli]

James I'm going to try to address the point #2
there is no lanc with (any) Panasonic. So there is no control of the zoom speed from the remote even if there is the remote option. with a lanc camera you can select the zoom speed from the remote, up to 16 steps plus variable. About the GH series there are only 2 zooms with a motor (14-45 PZ and 45-175). Tried both and the zoom is slow enough in the slowest position. On the 14-140 you can apply the rubber band tricks (somebody on personal view posted it) : you put the rubber band between the zoon ring and the tube of the lens, to add friction): I did try it and it works pretty well with a zoom lever. It's a manual zoom, and that would be the best solution achievable.

I am on the run right now but I'll try to locate the posts and more info later if you are interested.

[Nigel Barker]

Originally Posted by Anthony Lelli

nah. limiting intentionally a sensor already good is disgusting, unethical, makes me sick in the stomach. Now you were saying about positioning and marketing? what was that? Still disgusting and unethical. You can call it how you like but it's still disgusting.

Wow! You obviously have a very weak stomach &/or don't understand how capitalism works. Canon doesn't owe you anything as they are in business to make money. Using child labour or acting illegally to force competitors out of business is unethical. Putting particular features into a particular model so as to segment the market & maximise profits is just normal business. It's neither unethical nor disgusting.

BTW AFAIK Canon have not limited the sensor in the C100 in any way whether intentionally or not. I would love it if Canon put that sensor in a camera that cost $100 or even $1000 but they didn't so I don't let it worry me as I don't feel Canon have any obligation to fit in with my budget.

[Anthony Lelli]

Nigel,
you don't understand what I said.what you're saying about capitalism is valid but that's not what I said (not even close). you are talking about adding features which is fine for a price increase, but I am talking about the opposite which is limiting a product blocking features that are already there: and that's completely different. Anyway sit back now, read my post again and then let me know when and if you finally get it. It's all in there. You didn't read it. Don't sprint to reply just for the fun of it, read what I wrote before, no?

[Ken Ross]

^ Speaking of rereading what you wrote, may I suggest YOU reread what you wrote? You have a rather demeaning style of getting your point across.

I first saw your posts over in the AX100 thread and they don't seem much different here. Over in the AX100 thread, you implied prospective purchasers of the AX100 were 'stupid' for buying the camera. Your 'evidence' was very weak and not particularly well thought out.

You seem to be on a generic finger pointing campaign levied against these manufacturers. Look, nobody is forcing you to buy either the GH4 or the AX100. If you feel compelled to make your point to the manufacturers by not buying their equipment, that's fine. But coming to these threads to talk people out of purchasing these fine cameras based on your 'logic' is, frankly, just a bit silly IMO.

In the meantime, may I suggest a roll of Tums to help you with that 'sick to your stomach' feeling? :)

[Dave Blackhurst]

sometimes there is no logic...

[Ken Ross]

Ain't that the truth Mr. Blackhurst. :)

[Mark Williams]

U.S. GH4 price for body only announced as $1699 by texas media systems.

[Joe Ogiba]

Volcanic eruption in 4K shot with the GH4 !

[NEW] Panasonic LUMIX GH4 "The Land of South Kyushu" in 4K by Takehito Miyatake - YouTube