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Old October 9th, 2014, 01:50 PM   #31
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Re: Looks like I'm getting GH4

Noa, one reason I need to buy this thing later is I'm preparing my wife for a new family member, she is generally very supportive of my camera addiction, but none the less I need to prepare her for this and its taking a little time.

The thing I worry about most is, after I die, my wife will sell my cameras for what I told her I paid for them!
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Old October 9th, 2014, 02:42 PM   #32
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Re: Looks like I'm getting GH4

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Originally Posted by Michael Thames View Post
Like I said, there many very seductive features on the GH4, based on those alone I probably would click the "buy it now" button today. However, the "digital look" is something I'm struggling with, and is the number one reason I don't buy it today.
So, whats the point of asking if there is any reason you shouldn't get the gh4 if you don't like the digital look in the first place? If you don't like it today you won't like it tomorrow. It looks to me you only want to hear what a sensible choice the c100 will be.

To quote yourself
Quote:
However, reading Shane's review simply resonated with my gut instincts and brought me back to the reason I never really liked the GH4 image all that much, and it's a hugely important issue for me! If I wanted a video image I'd by a Camcorder, but I want low light and SDOF. I don't want another digital image!
So you answered your own question again...If the image look is so "hugely" important for you, why are you even considering the gh4? Why start this thread asking for buying advice while you clearly state you don't like the image the gh4 produces at all. :)

Also, I didn't say anything bad about the c100, on the contrary, I have been advising you to get a c100 but If you have any questions from a gh4 owner I will be happy to answer them for you.
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Old October 9th, 2014, 03:36 PM   #33
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Re: Looks like I'm getting GH4

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Originally Posted by Noa Put View Post
So, whats the point of asking if there is any reason you shouldn't get the gh4 if you don't like the digital look in the first place? If you don't like it today you won't like it tomorrow. It looks to me you only want to hear what a sensible choice the c100 will be.

To quote yourself


So you answered your own question again...If the image look is so "hugely" important for you, why are you even considering the gh4? Why start this thread asking for buying advice while you clearly state you don't like the image the gh4 produces at all. :)

Also, I didn't say anything bad about the c100, on the contrary, I have been advising you to get a c100 but If you have any questions from a gh4 owner I will be happy to answer them for you.
Well it seems I had talked myself out of the C100 and into the GH4 primarily because of all the amazing features, I was willing it seems, to sweep the "digital image" problem under the rug because of all the wondrous reviews of this camera, I thought perhaps I'm crazy and imagining this "digital image" problem.

When I read Shane's review of the GH4 it reawakened my discontent with the image, I am still weighing the pros and cons and can honestly say I still can't make up my mind 100%. In purchasing any camera it's more of a matter of compromise, and trade offs then getting everything you want.

One of the biggest questions I have is will anyone notice the "digital image" or for that matter the "cinema image" except for the people on this forum? Will the general public like a more detailed image or do they prefer a softer image, and how much can we compensate for one or the other in post. So I once again raise the issue with the GH4, because I'm getting close to pulling the trigger on this thing.

So Noa, calm down and lets let nature take it's course. I'm asking questions, you are handing out proclamations!
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Old October 9th, 2014, 06:06 PM   #34
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Re: Looks like I'm getting GH4

Michael,

Exactly what do you think you'll be shooting with the camera you finally purchase?

How long do you hope to keep it and it remain relevant without you wanting to 'upgrade' to the next one?

How much are you invested in EF glass and want to continue investing in it?

How much does the (tiny amount of) extra shallow DOF that the C100 provides mean to you, vs the ability to shoot wide open on M43 glass yet still get 'enough' DOF to keep people in focus?

How often do you think you'll be shooting wide angle vs telephoto?

How often do you think you'll be shooting in extra low light (high ISO)?

Does 4K mean anything to you now, or do you think it will mean more to you in the future?

Do you ever film interviews where you'd like to be able to zoom in (in post) without needing a second camera?

Do you mind dual system audio or do you absolutely need audio & video from the same card?

How do you expect to record your audio? (Shotgun, wireless Lav, wired Lav, mixing/house desk output etc?

Are you filming mainly in static or run & gun situations?

How long do you need to record for in one go?

How long do you need the battery and cards to last (recording time) ?

Are you OK with the fact that virtually no NLE correctly interprets the C100 footage and you are forced to manually adjust the clip settings to progressive (and hope you don't forget!) because almost all NLEs see the C100 as interlaced? If you forget the footage can look pretty nasty!

I could go on with more questions, but let's start with these. Depending on your answers I could recommend either way, so thinking these things through is important.

Talk of the 'digital look' is over blown IMHO. I can like or dislike the image from both cameras equally, depending on how I shot things on the day. There are shots from both cameras that totally blow me away, then there are equally shots from both cameras I could be disappointed with.
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Old October 9th, 2014, 08:32 PM   #35
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Re: Looks like I'm getting GH4

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Originally Posted by Dave Partington View Post
Michael,

Exactly what do you think you'll be shooting with the camera you finally purchase?

How long do you hope to keep it and it remain relevant without you wanting to 'upgrade' to the next one?

How much are you invested in EF glass and want to continue investing in it?

How much does the (tiny amount of) extra shallow DOF that the C100 provides mean to you, vs the ability to shoot wide open on M43 glass yet still get 'enough' DOF to keep people in focus?

How often do you think you'll be shooting wide angle vs telephoto?

How often do you think you'll be shooting in extra low light (high ISO)?

.
Hi Dave, I was getting around to addressing your post this evening, but you beat me to it with some fantastic things to consider. First off, let me thank you for the effort you have put in to helping me!

I can't figure out how to use the quote stuff here so I will take a chunk at a time.

I do classical guitar videos and some how to make guitar videos. Right now I'm beginning to work on a documentary about making a guitar for a world class guitarist and our friendship over the last 30 years weaving in and out of actually making the guitar in my shop, and stories about our lives, and how it all enter twines. This is all stuff I want to do potentially, but what I do now is this...... nothing earth shattering pretty basic. In a few months I will film this guitarist in Santa Fe in the oldest church in America playing a concert so basically stuff like that. This video was shot at ISO 625 on the 5D3.

Second question: well of course I would like it to remain relevant forever. I bought a XH-A1 back in 2008 and watched that camera become non-relevant sold it last year with the letus adopter for just about nothin..... ha ha.

Third question: I have the 70-200 f4 IS, a 24-105 f4, and the 50mm 1.4, and 1.8.

Forth question: DOF is very important to me, it's the whole reason I went from my XH-A1 to the 5D3! However, I thought perhaps for the S-DOF I can use the 5D3 because it is the reigning King of S-DOF. I'm willing to give up some S-DOF with the GH4, but as I said, I don't want another video camera like the A1 where there is vitally no S-DOF. I saw this review today of the GH4 and this is exactly what I don't want! He's is in focus while talking and so are the leaves on the trees hundreds of feet in back of him. The basket ball game looks like a cheap video camera to me, where as some of the food shots looked very good.

Fifth question: I never shoot wide angle to date, but never say never.

Sixth question: I almost always shoot indoors in low light or in an evening concert situation. I also shoot in my shop indoors and it's hard to get enough natural light to shoot under 1600 on my 5D3.

Sorry for the Quote issues hopefully someone can set me straight on using Quote properly.
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Old October 9th, 2014, 08:50 PM   #36
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Re: Looks like I'm getting GH4

Does 4K mean anything to you now, or do you think it will mean more to you in the future?

Do you ever film interviews where you'd like to be able to zoom in (in post) without needing a second camera?

Do you mind dual system audio or do you absolutely need audio & video from the same card?

How do you expect to record your audio? (Shotgun, wireless Lav, wired Lav, mixing/house desk output etc?

Are you filming mainly in static or run & gun situations?

How long do you need to record for in one go?

How long do you need the battery and cards to last (recording time) ?

1st Question: 4k means nothing to me at this point other than a better looking image, I shoot only for YouTube, Vimeo.

2nd question: I record on the Metric Halo ULN-2 a separate audio device and sync up the audio in post. If I need to record voice I use a rode video mic or a lavaliere mic both with mini jacks....... I rarely if ever used the XLR's on my old XH-A1. I just need enough audio in camera to use to sync.

3rd question: I almost never film run and gun..... 99% of the time on tripods or my Shark slider. The only time I do run and gun is on vacation in Thailand!

4th question: I have had many problems with the 5D3 and the 30 minute limit, expesically shooting 2 hour long concerts. I get worried about it heating up! Thus one of the main reasons I need a new camera that can record for perhaps 2 hours at a go while I use my 5D3 as a B cam doing some more lets say artistic shots.
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Old October 9th, 2014, 09:16 PM   #37
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Re: Looks like I'm getting GH4

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Originally Posted by Dave Partington View Post
Michael,

Are you OK with the fact that virtually no NLE correctly interprets the C100 footage and you are forced to manually adjust the clip settings to progressive (and hope you don't forget!) because almost all NLEs see the C100 as interlaced? If you forget the footage can look pretty nasty!

I could go on with more questions, but let's start with these. Depending on your answers I could recommend either way, so thinking these things through is important.

Talk of the 'digital look' is over blown IMHO. I can like or dislike the image from both cameras equally, depending on how I shot things on the day. There are shots from both cameras that totally blow me away, then there are equally shots from both cameras I could be disappointed with.
Dave, I was unaware of this problem. I had heard the AVCHD was not a very user friendly codec, but I had no idea it caused such problems...... BTW, I use FCPX. Yes, another major consideration!

I generally like a softer image with S-DOF..... I don't need to see every blemish on peoples faces. I do like I said like some S-DOF and I shoot in mostly low light. I do see the "digital image of the GH4, just how much of an issue it will be for me to adjust my mind to it is another problem, and whether the general population will even notice the difference.

I go crazy going back and forth between liking the GH4 image and not liking it. There is a place for the clarity and detail of the GH4 and maybe I can work it into what I do.

On one hand, I'm beginning to think I could just go a head and get the GH4 and give it a try! If it doesn't work as my main camera I can keep it for certain uses, and just go a head an get the C100 a little later. Or just sell the GH4. Huh...... maybe that's the solution!
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Old October 9th, 2014, 09:17 PM   #38
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Re: Looks like I'm getting GH4

Michael and Richard,

I can talk from experience on this topic. I purchased a C100 last year. I replaced it with the GH4 several months ago (chasing the 4K dream)! I had a good set up (cage, metabones speedbooster, Tokina 11-16, Voigtlander 25mm, Lightworks Variable ND, & more).

My last shoot with the GH4 was a Martial Arts training video. I had proper equipment, lighting, etc. That shoot, along with a previous doc shoot on the GH4, didn't work for me. I shot 4K, down rezzed to 1080p. It was ok, but not what I liked with the Canon C100. Again, the images from the GH4 were ok, I can even say at times good, but in my opinion, it didn't have the look my client preferred (I completed a previous shoot with this client last year, with my C100).

Last month, I sold the entire GH4 package and purchased another C100. I'm very satisfied with my decision. I also ordered and just received the Atomos Ninja Star. For several years, I used Sony Vegas Pro for editing. I'm now using Final Cut Pro X, with a Macbook Pro Quad Core laptop.

I like the grab and go factor of my C100 (no cages, no ergo issues, as with my GH4). The low light capability is a life saver (especially when you can't control lighting). The images out the box just works!

I prefer not to get into any long term post, regarding which camera is better. Whatever works for you (as an individual, is the best camera)! Many good choices out there!

Last edited by Troy Moss; October 9th, 2014 at 10:09 PM.
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Old October 9th, 2014, 11:59 PM   #39
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Re: Looks like I'm getting GH4

Wow, you guys have really been getting into it while I was gone for the last couple of days...

After reading through your posts Michael - I just have to ask, is the GH4/C100 to replace the 5d3 or to shoot along side?

I really don't see the GH4 as being a huge step up from the the 5d3. And I don't see why you would possibly need 4k for what you're doing.

I shoot professionally (corporate promos mostly) as a half time job. I work for a few select clients and my main camera for 5 years was a 5d2. But I knew it inside and out. I shot over 50,000 clips through it. It was a bullet-proof beast. The only thing that failed me in all those years was the audio port - which is one of the reasons why I upgraded. I also had a couple of broadcast spots to do that pretty much paid for the c100 and the ninja - so the upgrade was a no-brainer to justify. I thought about upgrading many times along the way, but there were no real compelling reasons - and my camera was long paid for and still making money.

Point is... Do you really need to upgrade yet? There are always good reasons to wait. Eventually you will pull the trigger, but in the meantime your 5d3 is more than adequate for producing for the web. And when you do pull the trigger - be happy with your decision, and make beautiful images...
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Old October 10th, 2014, 12:32 AM   #40
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Re: Looks like I'm getting GH4

Ken, i'll never sell my 5D3 I love it! But I need two cameras and I need one that shoots longer than the 30 minute limit of the 5d3 for concerts. I will use the 5D3 along with the new camera.
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Old October 10th, 2014, 01:24 AM   #41
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Re: Looks like I'm getting GH4

Probably a stupid question but why don't you get a second 5DIII body? You get exactly the same image, you know the camera and it will be cheaper then getting a c100.

Edit: ok, I saw you want longer then 30 min recordings, can't you just start one camera a few minutes after the other? For the type of recordings you do it does seem an option to record in that way. Weddingvideographers have been shooting ceremonies in that way for years, if you have the cameras standing side by side then it's actually very easy to follow-up on remaining recording times. I also don't think you need to worry about overheating, unless your shooting outside in the summer and the sun is shining right onto your camera's but even them you could put a small umbrella or something like that over your camera.

About getting shallow dof on the gh4, you just need fast enough lenses such a the voigtlanders if you want to get really shallow dof but also any other f1.4 like lens will do, unless you want one cm in focus and all the rest blurry, then you need a full frame camera. The example video you referred to was shot with either slower lenses or just with the iris wider open. If you want to know how it looks like just google voigtlanders, plenty of very shallow dof videos to find.
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Old October 10th, 2014, 03:24 AM   #42
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Re: Looks like I'm getting GH4

Michael,

Thanks for answering those questions, it was helpful.

Firstly, on the quote stuff, when you're editing, add a close quote [ / quote ] (remove the spaces) after the part you want to answer, then following your answer add an opening quote [ quote ] (remove the spaces) and it will begin quoting again from there on. The '/' is the only difference between an open and close quote. You'll see them in the text you're quoting already, so you can just copy / paste. Hope that helps.

From your answers the choice for me would be a very simple one. The C100. Why?

• It has better indoor low light abilities

• Easier to record longer events without breaks at all supported frame rates

• Better meters (e.g. waveforms etc) for checking lighting situations

• Slightly more dynamic range (in certain profiles)

• Dual cards means instant backup for those long non repeatable events

• Better audio pre-amps if you want to feed from your recorder in to the camera.

• Mounting points for external monitors / Ninja / Samurai etc if you ever need them.

Really, the only two things that sour the C100 for me are the fact that we only get a 2x punch in, I really would have liked a 5x or 10x, and the fact that I have to make the interlaced / progressive change for every clip in FCPX (same in Premiere Pro etc). It's just something you get used to doing. I actually talked with Apple engineers about this and they were initially open to the idea of 'fixing' it, but then decided against it. I really wish Canon would stop using this crazy PSF encoding scheme.

The 4K, 60/96fps slo-mo, small size and articulating screen probably aren't as important to you.

Don't be lead in to thinking the GH4 can't get shallow DOF, it absolutely can, just like the C100 is a crop sensor and won't offer the same shallow DOF as the 5D3, but you can still do shallow.

With all things considered, in your situation I think the C100 would be the better camera.

There is one big gotcha though. I absolutely hated trying to mix C100 and 5D3 footage. I could never make the 5D3 look as good as the C100 so always ended up dumbing down the C100 footage to look as bad as the 5D3! Having 2xC100 would have been awesome.

The GH4 matches the C100 better than the 5D3 because it's similarly sharp. There are some pretty nasty edge artefacts coming from the 5D3 that you probably don't even notice until you put the same shot side by side with something like the C100, then you can really start to hate the 5D3 footage! Arrgghh!!! Sorry if that just threw another wrench in the works!
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Old October 10th, 2014, 11:22 AM   #43
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Re: Looks like I'm getting GH4

to add and clarify, the GH4 is a DSLR that happens to shoot video, the C100 is a functioning video camera......I like to re-iterate to our clients the big 4 as I call them......chip. codec, FUNCTIONALITY, reliability....those are the key items to make decisions on...the rest plays into personal choice and the needs/requirements of the people you are working for.
BTW, both cameras are great (and well sell them) but you must look at the day to day in what makes your job harder or easier.

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Old October 10th, 2014, 11:45 AM   #44
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Re: Looks like I'm getting GH4

I have a couple of C100s for my video work and I have recently got the GH4 as a 'going out and about' camera.

If I was in your position what would i do? I'd wait and buy the C100. I'm consistently pleased with the images from it and it's great to use in corporate doco and narrative work I do, so overall I'm very happy with it. Above all, I 'trust' it to get the quality images I need when I'm working. I know it'll perform under all sorts of difficult situations and with the ergonomics, it's easy to work with quickly and efficiently for when I'm shooting on my own.

The GH4 is also a lovely camera. I'm blown away by the image quality in the ol' 4k downsized to 1080' routine. It's not as good in low light maybe, and perhaps the dynamic range isn't quite as flattering to an image as the C100 but in good light, it's simply a lovely image. Add to that all the bells and whistles I wish the C100 had, (codec choice, slo mo, stop motion, 4K) it's a great little camera that punches above its weight for its price.

I also have a 5D3 which I only ever use for stills now. Always found it too soft for video and it seemed to me that in order to defeat the moiré and artefacts, Canon just softened the image too much.

So this is my two penneth to add to the discussion: which camera do I reach for when doing serious work? The C100 every time. Which do I reach for when I want to do a fun project? The GH4.

Hope this helps.
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Old October 11th, 2014, 11:06 AM   #45
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Re: Looks like I'm getting GH4

Thanks to everyone for the incredible help! I feel like I've seen the light! C100 it is!

Trying to fall in love with the GH4 image is like going on a date with a frigid women, I want a sexy bombshell.

I've narrowed it down I think. The GH4 image is full of amazing detail but with no depth, or breath, some refer to this as a digitalized image, or a broadcast camera image.
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