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Old January 5th, 2017, 02:41 AM   #16
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Re: New Panasonic GH5 Official

I know this isn't a priority to most but i'm also chuffed the GH5 can do 1080p at 180fps. Isn't that the same as the Sony FS7 ?
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Old January 5th, 2017, 07:14 AM   #17
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Re: New Panasonic GH5 Official

Crap! Now I gotta rethink what I am gonna buy for a new camera. I was still looking at the Z150 but now.....
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Old January 5th, 2017, 08:00 AM   #18
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Re: New Panasonic GH5 Official

A Panasonic rep has stated for the record you will have to repurchase Vlog L for the GH5, even if you already own it for the GH4. If this also is a hint that Panasonic will charge for 10-bit 422 internal, the Waveform, Vectorscope, and LUT abilities (all in addition to the Vlog L purchase), would that be a dealbreaker? Would a $999 upgrade cost be a dealbreaker to add those capabilities?
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Old January 5th, 2017, 08:01 AM   #19
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Re: New Panasonic GH5 Official

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Originally Posted by Cliff Totten View Post
My guess would be 11-12 stops with V-LOG?? All footage today is supposedly with a beta firmware.
It's the exact same Vlog L as on the GH4, so yes, video will be 11.5-12 stops.
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Old January 5th, 2017, 07:14 PM   #20
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Re: New Panasonic GH5 Official

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I don't think it is too complicated. Sony is an electronics focused business organization and they have experienced less than satisfactory profitability of recent times. That can not continue. I see their core competency as manufacturing and the closer they get to retail the less profitable they become. It makes sense for them, obviously, to focus on sensor manufacturing and leave the downstream action as that area is outside their core competency. For instance the "BionzX" processor was, as I understand it, a purchased chunk of electronics and not manufactured in house.

One thing they did NOT do is shoot themselves in the foot. You don't get it Cliff but you may rest assured they do. Understand their decision making behavior is driven by profitability and the potential lack thereof. It's not that complicated. The exact details as in the product management team's discussion and decisions we can only guess but a bunch of gun-happy-itchy-trigger-fingered-foot-shooters they are decidedly not, in my opinion.

Their current behavior is aimed at preventing the demise of the corporation and not competing where they can not profitably do so is focused in that direction.

My opinion - a long term Sony fanboy too :-)
I get Sony's Semiconductor group and their desire to sell as many image sensors as they can. I believe that are a very profitable asset within the Sony umbrella.

But what about the rest of Sony imaging? I dont know this, but I have to suspect that the Handycam brand is not doing too well but Alpha and XDCAM ARE doing well? Alpha models are everywhere and I have to believe E mount lens sales are hot too. I seriously doubt that they are losing money as a whole on Alpha cameras and pro XDCAM/CineAlta camcorders today. No?

This GH5 is a massive assault on Sony's Alpha brand and partially on XDCAM too. And,...."IF" Sony really is selling Panny that IMX269 sensor, than they are assisting Panasonic in this brutal attack on Alpha+XDCAM.

Normally, I dont think it's any harm to sell chips to competing companies because Sony has always managed to compete very well against other companies that buy Sony tech. Mostly because other companies keep their camera's within "normal" or "traditional" industry limitations. In my opinion, Sony still out classes those "other guys" cameras anyway. However,...this time, it's DIFFERENT! What Panasonic has done with the GH5 is NOT typical. They WAY overloaded it with specs that are off the carts for a $2000 camera. Did Sony just give Panasonic the dagger to stab Alpha with?? We both know that Sony will absolutely refuse to build an Alpha with these GH5 specs...so there you go! The Sony Alpha group is just going to lie there bleeding. Does Sony Semiconductor group "really" not care??

How much money can Sony make on image sensor sales to Panasonic? I have no clue! Maybe a TON of money? I guess it must be allot more money being made on that side over the money lost on Alpha and XDCAM sales because of the GH5? Are image sensor profits on the GH5's Sony IMX269 sensor sales really "that" high?....WOW!,.."that" high????

If that's the case than you could be completely right. Maybe Sony will stab Alpha in the back to cash-in on Panasonic's payment checks?? It's like Kane killing Able...cold blooded, dirty style. Ouch!

I admittedly have no friggin' clue. Just a bunch of interesting questions that can never be publicly answered by either company.

CT
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Old January 5th, 2017, 08:09 PM   #21
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Re: New Panasonic GH5 Official

Panasonic's recent cameras have been a real threat to Sony's lineup. The FZ2500 is a very capable camera with ND filters that Sony took off the new competing RX camera, the UX180 and HC-X1 have no Sony competition at all. I have been a Sony fan for a long time and all my current cameras are Sony but am seriously considering changing most to Panasonic. The WiFi app for the Panasonic stills cameras is a lot more functional than PlayMemories which really does not work that well with the Sony handycams I have . I wanted an improved version of the FDR-AX1 I have and Panasonic has produced not one but three possible replacements. Two with 20x zoom ( UX180 and HC-X1 ) etc and the GH5 with other attributes. The FZ2500 also challenges my AX100 with better WiFi app for remote control. If Sony had put UHD 60P on the FS5 I might well have bought it likewise UHD60P on the Z150. I feel they wanted to protect the XQD cards for the higher frame rates in 4K and limit UHD for SD cards to 30P to create a differentiation to the FS7. I think they totally missed the boat and now will have some problem catching up without causing some problems with their current lineup.

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Old January 5th, 2017, 08:35 PM   #22
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Re: New Panasonic GH5 Official

I have noticed all the things you listed too. Yeah,..I gotta sadly say that I agree. (Except for the leaving Sony part. I'm not ready for that yet)

I owned an FS5. I used it on two jobs and sold it when Sony Kumamoto went down and they stopped FS5 production. I sold it for 800 more than what I bought it for. Although it has brilliant ergonomics, I was really disappointed in the way Sony adjusted it's internal CODEC and the camera was just way too noisy for me using SLOG. It's older sensor cant compete with today's more sophisticated Alpha sensors. I'm sure it's fine for many folks but just not for me. I think they went too far in protecting the FS7 from the FS5 in terms of image quality.

I dont know what is going on with Sony but Panasonic is on a roll these days. They are suddenly producing significantly better and better cameras and I have a hunch that Sony is helping them do it. If that's true, I hope that Sony is charging them allot for their services. I "sort of" suspect that Sony is selling Panasonic their full pixel read out, oversampling and scaling circuits too. Panasonic used to do mostly pull 1:1 pixel read-outs and now, suddenly they are doing oversampling right when they allegedly start buying Sony sensors? I dont know... I really dont.

This GH5 will be historic. I think it will be a camera that we all look to 20 years from now when we say..."The GH5!,... that was the one that FORCED everybody to change everything!". I gotta give Panny props here. I tip my hat to them, big time.

If Alpha ever does the unthinkable and gives 10bit, 4:2:2 internal recording with no time limit to an A7s/r-III or an A7000, they will be doing it under EXTREME stress with a gun pointed to their head.

That gun is named "GH5".

CT
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Old January 5th, 2017, 08:44 PM   #23
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Re: New Panasonic GH5 Official

Firstly I don't have any clue Sony's financials but then again no one else here does either. I can't help chuckle at the over reactions. The GH5 is going to put out of business a giant multinational company who makes all manner of electronic devices including the sensor to the GH5. The sold the more they make. That's what you call a win win.

Honestly I think Sony could include the features of the gh5 without worrying about undercutting their other cameras because no matter how good it's still a dslr with all the disadvantages that are inherent in that form factor. There could also be a engineering hindrance that limits what can be done with a full sensor.

On a related note while the GH5 added features sound great how is all that stuff going to effect the battery life or cause heat related problems? Is this going to be the case when people get what they want then complain about the consequences that come with it?

Right now the GH5 looks great but I've never seen a camera people couldn't find fault with. Btw, Sony isn't the only company who with holds features to not under cut their higher end line. Look at Canon C100 they could include internal 422 but then who would buy C300?
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Old January 5th, 2017, 08:49 PM   #24
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Re: New Panasonic GH5 Official

I certainly am not privy to the goings on at the top of the Sony Corporation but over the last couple of years a few clues, if not outright blatant declarations, have appeared. Perhaps one of the most interesting appeared in the Wall Street Journal Updated Feb. 18, 2015 9:34 a.m. ET. "The electronics giant will focus on growth sectors like movies, music, games and image sensors".

That is a clear unequivocal statement of long term strategic direction. There will be no emotional back-stabbing, no brutal attacks, no massive assaults, no lying there bleeding but rather a clean highly targeted series of unemotional surgical operations conducted as painlessly as possible for the human beings involved. It will not be a quick fix - the Sony ship is too big to just spin around with a quick flick of the tiller - but a well managed drawn out decisive return to meeting shareholder profit needs.

Our favorite gear, video cameras and suchlike, are not mentioned above. You know what that means.

I am prepared to wager as many cold ones as we may consume during one sitting, or two, deliverable at the Jolly Roger Pub in the Waikawa Marina that Sony Corporation will exit (sell off) part or all of the camera business (the business unit recently split off) and not look over their shoulder, and that will happen before the end of 2017.

I will win the wager and you shall indeed find the location and the occasion quite agreeable :-)

I might record the event on my recently acquired Lumix GH5 in 4K 60P to dual cards, one for you and one for me.

Cheers...
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Old January 5th, 2017, 09:58 PM   #25
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Re: New Panasonic GH5 Official

Is Sony's camera group not making any money? Are they losing money for Sony? It seems to me that even if XDCAM, CineAlta, Alpha and Handycam were only profiting 1 million dollars after all it's bills were paid, that would STILL be a good asset for Sony to have in it's holdings. (Even if it were only breaking even.)

How in the world "could" Sony even sell it? If another company were to buy it, how would they deal with the brands themselves? Like,...would they rebrand everything with "Samsung XDCAM" or "Samsung Alpha" or "Samsung CineAlta"??

I just dont think that any of Sony's brands could live, survive or thrive outside of Sony's infrastructure, R&D and close support from Sony Semiconductor group. If another company bought it and hired those good Sony managers and engineers away, the entire thing would flop dead in a year or two.

Could GM sell it's "Chevy" brand to another company? Could that brand survive outside of GM, managed by another company? I seriously doubt it. I suspect "XDCAM", "CineAlta", "Alpha" and "Handycam" either live under Sony or die completely inside the company. There is no other place it can live.

I gotta laugh,...this idea is super crazy.

I only know one thing for certain. Because of this GH5, in the near future, if your new camera doesn't have 10bit 4:2:2 and 60p?....your camera wont sell very well, it at all!

As bad as every camera company will want to,...it's too late now, nobody can put this GH5 10bit genie back into the bottle. Sony and Canon can't cover their eyes and ears and "wish" it away either.

CT
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Old January 5th, 2017, 10:23 PM   #26
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Re: New Panasonic GH5 Official

[QUOTE=Cliff Totten;1925915
I gotta laugh,...this idea is super crazy.
CT[/QUOTE]

Happens all the time. For instance Sony recently sold 'Sony Vegas Software to Magix and so now we have Magix Vegas Software. I have personally experienced one such huge event which began as a joint venture - both companies spun off their similar product departments - and kept both parent companies names in the title. It worked just fine. In due course one of the parent companies purchased the spin-off and renamed it. No problem (Well, there were problems but nothing unmanageable).

What's wrong with 'Nikon a6300' (other than the overheating issue :-))

However, in today's fast paced environment what wonderful and unique cam product line does Sony have to offer, really? Sony Corporation might need to bite a few bullets soon.
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Old January 5th, 2017, 10:49 PM   #27
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Re: New Panasonic GH5 Official

Sony makes the a6300 not Nikon. Most if not all mirror less cameras are prone to some extent to overheating including the Gh4.
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Old January 5th, 2017, 10:59 PM   #28
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Re: New Panasonic GH5 Official

Sorry Pete, I was being way too whimsical. I was suggesting Nikon might purchase the Sony cam product line and rename the Sony a6300 as the Nikon a6300. Couldn't resist the overheating gibe just to keep things in perspective :-). Just a joke...
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Old January 5th, 2017, 11:01 PM   #29
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Re: New Panasonic GH5 Official

Selling Vegas was easy for Sony. They never built it, they bought it from Sonic Foundry. I dont think they ever cared about the software guys in Wisconson so they dumped it with no attachment. (Sony is a very proud Japanese centric company) Sony also dropped VAIO computers brand like a hot potato with no attachment or love lost on that property either. I even think Sony will dump their cell phones to with no tears whatsoever.

Sony cameras are a different animal all together. They are EXTREMELY proud of their camera/camcorder brands in Sony Japan HQ and all over the world. Those three Sony camera brands are deep rooted today in the company. Even the CEO Kazuo Hirai at CES this week told us all how cameras are a deep "personal passion" for him and that he will "personally continue to drive Sony to be your ONLY camera brand of choice".

I'm pretty sure Sony has enormous confidence in their cameras and they would never dump that the way they did with those other brands. I think they will re-market their fleet with less models to protect from each other (Like Panasonic) and add more features into each.

Panasonic can give a GH5 everything. Why? because there is no AF-101 above it to hurt. The next product up from their GH5 is Varicam....so the GH5 is all alone where it sits....nice and comfortable with PLENTY of marketing room to breathe.

Nah,...I'm betting Sony cameras stay where they are but with a new marketing strategy. NAB is coming up in a couple of months. Let's see what Sony does. A7s-III and a new 4k ENG camera above the Z150?

Sony's problem is not their technology or their engineering ability. No way, there's nobody better. Their problem is their will to cripple their products to protect the next highest model. If Sony fixes that?....woah, they could kill everything and everybody take over the entire industry. (yes, I'm exaggerating..just a little bit...lol)

CT

p.s. Hell, if Sony just started adding SLOG-2 to existing ENG camera firmware, that would be a fast, low cost turbo charger. Especially for the Z150 which we know can do it with no trouble because the RX10-II does SLOG-2.
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Old January 6th, 2017, 12:55 AM   #30
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Re: New Panasonic GH5 Official

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Originally Posted by Pete Cofrancesco View Post
I can't help chuckle at the over reactions.
+1

Sony still has their full frame, low light, better autofocussing and eventhough not as effective their sensor stabilization, that's all they need to not being bothered by the GH5, every new model they bring out will be a slight improvement over the previous one. The C100 mark 2 is also a good example that it's not all about the codec, I"m sure those owners won't all jump ship to get a GH5.
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